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Offline chuckxc

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Re: Starter Motor
« Reply #230 on: October 31, 2020, 12:45:03 AM »
I've had success in replacing the brushes and cutting the commutator on a lathe.

Here are some other things to consider:

-make sure you thoroughly clean out all the carbon dust
-the commutator copper needs to be cut with a lathe, not just sandpaper
-a piece of hacksaw blade is useful for cleaning between the copper contacts on the commutator
-make sure the area at  the mounting bolts is free of paint and making a very good electrical contact with the engine (the ground)
-(I even went a bit overboard and  added a dedicated ground cable between the starter motor and the battery as a precaution)
-clean to bright metal,  all the high-current contact points on the starter/relay/battery circuit
-liberally curse Triumph while you do this.


Laterally unstable unless moving.

My third Triple - 1976 Laverda 3CL Jota
My 4cyl grunt - 2005 Honda CB1300F

Offline Brettus

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Re: Starter Motor
« Reply #231 on: October 31, 2020, 04:04:34 AM »
I did the same as you rubberdown and it was better but then had hot start problem again . So I replaced battery and it's been fine ever since. I think both were weak but I was surprised to have a hot start problem with a dodgy battery .... normally I would have expected that to cause a cold start issue.

Offline Telstar

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Re: Starter Motor
« Reply #232 on: October 31, 2020, 10:14:10 AM »
Hi rubberdown I have had the refurbished starter fitted along with a new battery but unfortunately I am still getting the hot start issue which is very annoying the Ricks starter I had only lasted 18 months/4000 miles before complete failure before I buy another genuine triumph starter I am going to make up a heat shield
To see if that helps the starter just gets so hot.
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Offline rubberdown

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Re: Starter Motor
« Reply #233 on: October 31, 2020, 01:52:42 PM »
Hi all, Thanks for the input, so it seems to have a good reliably starting bike, because the starter is not 'man' enough for the job and is positioned where it is prone to get hot, everything has to be working at its optimum. I found this link which throws a lot of light on the problem,  https://www.knowyourparts.com/technical-resources/starting-and-charging/starter-will-not-crank-when-hot-heat-soak/ 
I will strip it out again, take it to starter recon specialist and ask if they can get it back to original performance level, if they can't assure me, replace with a ricks or triumph starter, fit heavier high voltage leads, consider a heat shield/improved vent air flow, make sure all connections are clean and tight, (i might use the old connector as a direct earth back to the battery)..... right wheres my spanners?
Thanks to everybody for the advice.  :031: cheers.

Offline Javaman

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Re: Starter Motor
« Reply #234 on: October 31, 2020, 09:59:41 PM »
I am currently investigating this very issue for Tiger 1050 and although my investigations haven't yielded the data set I was attempting to gather, I might have information which could prove useful.
Take a read and I hope some of you guys find the thread interesting . . .



https://www.tiger1050.com/index.php/topic,41410.110.html


Offline NORTY

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Re: Starter Motor
« Reply #235 on: January 20, 2021, 11:09:35 PM »
Well heck, it looks like it's my turn in the "hot start" barrel. 52,XXX miles on a 2012 800XC.

Now, to let my dealer screw me for $850 for a new starter + labor, or

Contact Rick's for $220 + shipping, in my hand, or

Buying parts and R & R ing the guts, with the hopes that it works. (And, more importantly, the cause of the issue.)
MSF RIDERCOACH (RETIRED!) :)

Offline Javaman

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Re: Starter Motor
« Reply #236 on: January 21, 2021, 10:50:25 AM »
Hi Norty . . . if your bike has started doing this at 50000 miles, I suspect the main candidate will be a build up of crud inside the starter motor itself. It is relatively easy to remove, strip and clean and perhaps you should try doing this first as you have nothing to lose.
I made a thread/video on this on the 1050 Tiger forum - https://www.tiger1050.com/index.php/topic,41810.0.html  which might be worth a look.
Meanwhile, if it only happens when hot, one thing to guard against is allowing the starter motor to get hot in the first place and apart from the obvious issues with summertime ambient temperature, leaving the bike idling when stationary or slow town riding are the two biggest causes and if you've done either for any length of time, beware turning the engine off!!!  :232:

Offline Javaman

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Re: Starter Motor
« Reply #237 on: January 21, 2021, 11:01:34 AM »
*Originally Posted by Brettus [+]
I did the same as you rubberdown and it was better but then had hot start problem again . So I replaced battery and it's been fine ever since. I think both were weak but I was surprised to have a hot start problem with a dodgy battery .... normally I would have expected that to cause a cold start issue.

The Triumph starter motor produces 18% less torque when hot (60 celcsius) and a hot engine coincidentally requires 18% more torque at the crank to simply turn it over from a standstill compared with ambient. The latter figure was found by an Australian guy and he didn't state what ambient was but given the geography . . . it won't have been -20C!!!!
Given a starter motor which is only just capable, it doesn't take much to realise that a hot start could be problematic and so battery condition is important, upgraded cables will help minimally. Upgraded battery will only help minimally as the OEM battery is capable of supplying the required amps when in good condition.
There have been loads of comments about checking clutch/sidestand cutout switches and that the starter button is clean etc . . . these all effect just one thing - the ability of the starter motor solenoid to activate correctly.  Don't bother testing any of these, simply remove the fuel pump relay so the bike won't start, crank the bike with a multimeter held over the two high current terminals on the starter solenoid. Voltage drop should be very, very small . . . from memory, I think mine was around 0.03V. If you're losing volts here then clearly the Starter solenoid is making a poor contact .
Check all electrical contacts for cleanliness and tightness and finally, strip and clean the starter if it has done the miles to perhpas justify it

Offline D6864

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Re: Starter Motor
« Reply #238 on: January 21, 2021, 02:22:51 PM »
*Originally Posted by Javaman [+]
... a hot engine coincidentally requires 18% more torque at the crank to simply turn it over from a standstill compared with ambient.
Seems strange, I'd expect a hot engine to turn over more easily due to the oil being thinner when hot. Was any explanation given?

Offline Javaman

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Re: Starter Motor
« Reply #239 on: January 21, 2021, 02:39:14 PM »
Its due to an increase in the "dynamic compression ratio".
When the bores are hot, the cold air drawn into the cylinders is heated by the residual heat from the cyclinders and this causes a significant increase in compression compared to a cold engine.
The reduced friction resulting from warm oil will offset this to some extent but the combined effect of both is to give about an 18% increase in cranking force required. The guy who posted didn't state how hot the engine was or how long it had been turned off but from reading his post, I would expect he had it idling for a while to get it good and hot and conducted the test within a minute or two.
All he did was remove the crankcase inspection plug and stick a socket on the nut on the end of the sprag and with a digital torque adapater attached, measured the amount of torque required to just turn the engine over "by hand"
« Last Edit: January 21, 2021, 02:41:06 PM by Javaman »

 


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