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Offline barry.t100sr

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Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
« Reply #70 on: November 20, 2020, 06:35:05 PM »
*Originally Posted by JohnTz [+]
By the time you see any measurable compression issue the damage is done.

I beg to disagree John.

I'm not saying I'm right on this,.... I did say earlier that I'm prepared to be shot down,  but so far I have not seen any hard evidence that my compression test "system" is not worth a try.

I had experience some years ago with a 900 Sprint, I had adjusted three exhaust valves at about 55,000 miles.  About 10k miles later I started to have cold start problems and a friend suggested that the valve clearances might be tight.
Sure enough, two were tight.  Once adjusted the engine was fine again, and went on to 85,000 when I sold it two years ago.
I see it regularly on the road still going well.

So, my 2016 Tiger 800 XR is now up to 22,000 miles and is running better than ever !  Starts immediately hot or cold. Never had valves checked.  I'll be changing the plugs again soon and will check the compression. If it's ok I'll put it back together and carry on riding  :002:

I'm prepared to take the risk, rather than go to the time and expense of checking clearances every 12k miles.

I'm lucky in that I can sort it myself.  I would hate to think that I might pay a dealer to do work that doesn't get done!

How many times have you heard "valves checked,... all ok" ?....  or worse still  " three adjusted, that'll  be 700++ for the full service.

Finally, how many of you have had burnt valves on a modern bike engine ?..... not many I guess ?

That's all for now.   :002: 

 

 
   
« Last Edit: November 20, 2020, 06:37:49 PM by barry.t100sr »
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Offline AvgBear

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Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
« Reply #71 on: November 20, 2020, 06:54:13 PM »
*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
The valve clearances are not there simply to avoid zero clearance when the engine is hot but to allow the cams to open and close the valves quietly.
The great majority of modern ICEs run with zero valve clearance due to the popular use of hydraulic lifters / cam followers.
Some camshaft lobes are designed with quieting ramps -- some not: performance cams often want to pop the valves open quickly and let them shut quickly with little regard to noise.
There are a terrible lot of lies going about the world, and the worst of it is that half of them are true.
WSC

Offline JohnTz

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Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
« Reply #72 on: November 20, 2020, 07:02:16 PM »
*Originally Posted by barry.t100sr [+]
I beg to disagree John.

I'm not saying I'm right on this,.... I did say earlier that I'm prepared to be shot down,  but so far I have not seen any hard evidence that my compression test "system" is not worth a try.

I had experience some years ago with a 900 Sprint, I had adjusted three exhaust valves at about 55,000 miles.  About 10k miles later I started to have cold start problems and a friend suggested that the valve clearances might be tight.
Sure enough, two were tight.  Once adjusted the engine was fine again, and went on to 85,000 when I sold it two years ago.
I see it regularly on the road still going well.

So, my 2016 Tiger 800 XR is now up to 22,000 miles and is running better than ever !  Starts immediately hot or cold. Never had valves checked.  I'll be changing the plugs again soon and will check the compression. If it's ok I'll put it back together and carry on riding  :002:

I'm prepared to take the risk, rather than go to the time and expense of checking clearances every 12k miles.

I'm lucky in that I can sort it myself.  I would hate to think that I might pay a dealer to do work that doesn't get done!

How many times have you heard "valves checked,... all ok" ?....  or worse still  " three adjusted, that'll  be 700++ for the full service.

Finally, how many of you have had burnt valves on a modern bike engine ?..... not many I guess ?

That's all for now.   :002: 

 

 
   

Hi Barry.

It is a crap shoot. I have seen these engines go t50K miles with valves staying within spec and my best friends engine was ruined at 21K miles at the exhaust side. My experience is that my intakes were right on at 12K but all my exhaust were slightly tight. After adjustment they have not moved at all at 25K miles. It is simply a risk reward equation that you have to make for yourself.

If you are already taken all the parts off to get to the plugs you have completed 75% of the work to check the valves. I would simply then remove the cover and check them for peace of mind. The hardest part of it is removing the plastic crap :)

Offline Paulhere

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Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
« Reply #73 on: November 20, 2020, 07:19:36 PM »
*Originally Posted by JohnTz [+]
By the time you see any measurable compression issue the damage is done.

True, valves & seats will already be damaged.

*Originally Posted by AvgBear [+]
The great majority of modern ICEs run with zero valve clearance due to the popular use of hydraulic lifters / cam followers.

That might be true of big old US 5 Litre lumps, certainly not on modern day performance engines. Fords did it on Escorts back in the 90's, not now on Focus. Honda did it on a low maintenance 750cc 4cyl retro back in 90's.

The vast majority of performance engines are shim under bucket with cam running direct on bucket (or on shim, on shim over on earlier trumpies) so very little to wear topside, hence the clearances close up, seat recess beats wear. A little rattle is ok.

On the old pushrod engines, there are many moving parts to open valves, hence wear beats valve recess, so clearances open up & rattle, fortunately it's a quick & easy job on lock screw & nut.
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Offline AvgBear

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Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
« Reply #74 on: November 20, 2020, 07:23:00 PM »
*Originally Posted by barry.t100sr [+]
My understanding is that valve clearances on Triumph engines usually tighten up over time due to valve seat recession
*Originally Posted by Stevie.P [+]
...modern engines, like Hinkley Triumph, designed for unleaded I don't believe they suffer valve seat recession.
'Strewth, modern metallurgy has devoted much energy in preserving valve faces, valve seats (and the seat's integrity with the combustion chamber / cylinder head: seat recession).
Still, there may be component wear: not all valves are created equal. Higher performance engines will want to use larger parts for more flow - yet lighter parts for higher rev limits. Large diameter thin/light intake valves are often suspect durability-wise.
Exhaust valves, OTOH, are often sufficiently stout in order to be able to exist in their terrible environment. But, a design for a certain performance target, fer instance, that may limit an exhaust valve's time resting on it's seat to shed heat -- may cause less durability clearance-wise.
Variables exist due to design parameters: cost / intended market / available materials - alloys / etc.
Most manufacturers are doing a masterful job in this regard these days (IMHO).
There are a terrible lot of lies going about the world, and the worst of it is that half of them are true.
WSC

Offline AvgBear

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Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
« Reply #75 on: November 20, 2020, 07:27:45 PM »
*Originally Posted by Paulhere [+]
Fords did it on Escorts back in the 90's, not now on Focus.
Wiki:
"Hydraulic tappets require more complex and more expensive cylinder head design. A number of subcompact car manufacturers prefer solid valve lifters due to lower design and production cost rather than hydraulic tappets."
There are a terrible lot of lies going about the world, and the worst of it is that half of them are true.
WSC

Offline Paulhere

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Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
« Reply #76 on: November 20, 2020, 07:38:38 PM »
*Originally Posted by AvgBear [+]
Wiki:
"Hydraulic tappets require more complex and more expensive cylinder head design. A number of subcompact car manufacturers prefer solid valve lifters due to lower design and production cost rather than hydraulic tappets."

The major manufacturers of performance engines mustn't read wiki.  :492:
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Offline AvgBear

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Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
« Reply #77 on: November 20, 2020, 11:30:40 PM »
One of the ubiquitous engines is a V6 Toyota, they've been around for decades, and are DOHC w/shim&bucket adjustment -- I've yet to meet an owner who's had the valve clearances checked (let alone - adjusted). One reason is cost -- they're quoted about $1,000 to check the valve clearance. The rear bank of the cross-wise V6 is almost impossible to get at -- some require actually moving the engine.
There are other modern V6 engines that employ hydraulic (automatic) valve-lash adjustment.
Owners of either type seem similarly blissfully unaware of any valve adjustment issues..?

But, as this relates to Triumph,generally, and the T800 in particular: I think that checking and maintaining Triumph's specified valve clearances may have more to do with meeting current emissions regulations than, say, reliability?
After all, Triumph is now re-setting cam-chain sprockets (at interim services) in slots in order to comply with emission regs.
There are a terrible lot of lies going about the world, and the worst of it is that half of them are true.
WSC

Offline Paulhere

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Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
« Reply #78 on: November 21, 2020, 08:25:56 AM »
Current bikes Tiger800 XRx, Tiger Sport 1050, Ariel FH 650, Yam Serow 225.

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Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
« Reply #79 on: November 21, 2020, 04:48:37 PM »
Decided to check my valves seeing as I've free time on my hands due to lockdown.

First a big thankyou to Mr T800XC for the amazing tool he freely gives. I forgot to reconnect the MAP sensor pipe  :138:  and the software let me know  :152:

Secondly, if any of you guys (or gals) are thinking of doing the same, especially after watching Muddysumps excellent videos, take note. I have a 17/18 model Gen2 and there is a little more going on there than Muddysumps T800. Removing extra parts including SAIS and throttle bodies is not a real problem, but the lack of comparative access is. The available space to access some fixings is really tight, especially when coming to torque back up.

Hope this helps someone.

 :031:

 


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