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Offline Seanocaoimh

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Re: Low oil pressure light
« Reply #100 on: June 11, 2018, 09:41:48 AM »
Roel, 10w 50 + new oil filter was the last thing I did to the bike. Of the last 3 rides I've taken on the bike, the light only came on,  on the first one. :187: If I can't determine why this is ? the light could come back on anytime. I'm going to leave things as they are,  for the
time being and see how things develop. I will let you know how I get on. Keep me posted on your situation.
                                                                      :062:

Offline Roel1964

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Re: Low oil pressure light
« Reply #101 on: June 11, 2018, 10:25:08 AM »
*Originally Posted by Seanocaoimh [+]
Roel, 10w 50 + new oil filter was the last thing I did to the bike. Of the last 3 rides I've taken on the bike, the light only came on,  on the first one. :187: If I can't determine why this is ? the light could come back on anytime. I'm going to leave things as they are,  for the
time being and see how things develop. I will let you know how I get on. Keep me posted on your situation.
                                                                      :062:

That is interesting indeed. When the light comes on again when you take out the bike on a hot day, then there is still some kind of logic to it.
I can imagine that thicker oil (10W50) maintains it's temperature longer than thinner oil, so it takes longer for the oil to heat up and also to cool down again.
What happens when you let the bike run at idle for 15 minutes in your garage, meaning it will not get any riding wind ?
My bike only needed about 10 to 15 minutes of idling for the oil light to come on. The video that is posted is about 10 minutes long and in that time the oil pressure dropped down to where the oil light would come on. (The mechanical oil gauge was placed where the pressure switch was mounted, so the switch was removed. That is why you don't see an oil light coming on in the video).

I'm curious how things develop with your bike now. Keep posting. I'll do the same.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2018, 10:27:20 AM by Roel1964 »

Offline Seanocaoimh

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Re: Low oil pressure light
« Reply #102 on: June 11, 2018, 04:05:19 PM »
Will do :028:

Offline Roel1964

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Re: Low oil pressure light
« Reply #103 on: June 11, 2018, 06:25:31 PM »
The oil pickup screen revisited :
At first i only wiped the screen and the pickup entry with kitchen paper while the pipe was still mounted. I found some small grains of debris and a little piece of fluid gasket (silicone). The screen looked fine for what i could see, laying on my back on the floor and shining with a flash light.
But because i didn't want to leave anything to chance (and because i becoming paranoid by now), i removed the tube with the screen and sprayed some brake fluid upstream into the pipe to "back-flush" the screen thoroughly. I put a piece of kitchen paper under the screen to catch any stuff that would come out.
Well, i was surprised about the amount of stuff that i found in the kitchen paper. It looks like tiny pieces of paper that got kind of transparent because being drained and boiled in the hot oil and it must have wrapped around the "wires" of the screen. I'm positive that it must be gasket material, because it can't be anything else that would look similar.
It might have clogged the screen just enough to bring the oil pressure down. Who knows.

Interesting enough, the last thing that i opened half a year before the oil light problem started, was the right crankcase cover which has a paper gasket.
With removing the remaining gasket material, some of it must have dropped into the crankcase opening and was transported by the oil back to the sump, where it was caught by the pickup screen.
By the end of the week i hope i can tell you if it helped or not.  :157:

Offline AvgBear

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Re: Low oil pressure light
« Reply #104 on: June 11, 2018, 06:58:33 PM »
Another source of paper-like debris in the engine oil can be clutch friction disc material. If the clutch is abused.
Since oil viscosity has been discussed, I'll tell a little story related to me by a friend who had an air-cooled Porsche back-in-the-day. He thought the recco'd oil may not be thick enough / heavy enough viscosity so he devised a test. The car had a factory-fitted oil pressure gauge and he added an oil temperature gauge. With heavier / thicker oil, once fully warmed-up, the oil pressure was the same as the lighter oil but the oil temp. was higher. IOW, thinner oil = cooler temp. / pressure ultimately the same.
I've ridden all-around the United States and parts of Arkansas.

Offline Roel1964

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Re: Low oil pressure light
« Reply #105 on: June 11, 2018, 08:36:56 PM »
*Originally Posted by AvgBear [+]
Another source of paper-like debris in the engine oil can be clutch friction disc material. If the clutch is abused.
Since oil viscosity has been discussed, I'll tell a little story related to me by a friend who had an air-cooled Porsche back-in-the-day. He thought the recco'd oil may not be thick enough / heavy enough viscosity so he devised a test. The car had a factory-fitted oil pressure gauge and he added an oil temperature gauge. With heavier / thicker oil, once fully warmed-up, the oil pressure was the same as the lighter oil but the oil temp. was higher. IOW, thinner oil = cooler temp. / pressure ultimately the same.

That seems to be what we see with my bike and probably also Sean's bike : the thicker oil does not solve the low pressure problem, but it just delays the problem. So there must be some kind of balance between viscosity and temperature that is reached after a certain time. The time needed to reach the balance depends on the oil viscosity and the oil temperature (influenced by some degree by the ambient temperature).

Strange enough you read many stories about successfully using thicker oil to raise the pressure in engines that have worn bearings.
Maybe the play in the bearings don't heat up the oil that much, so the temperature stays lower than when using thicker oil in bearings that are not worn ?
Einstein is turning around in his grave now i guess.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2018, 08:39:24 PM by Roel1964 »

Offline Roel1964

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Re: Low oil pressure light
« Reply #106 on: June 13, 2018, 11:57:53 AM »
Here is a comprehensive list of possible causes for low oil pressure in general that i collected here and from different sources (books, internet) :
  • Low engine oil level, so the pump flow rate becomes too low due to air sucked up
  • Faulty oil pressure sensor or switch
  • Worn engine oil pump and/or engine bearings
  • Engine overheating causing low oil viscosity + overheated oil can cause varnishing deposits that clog the pickup screen
  • Oil pickup filter blocked (gasket remainder, clutch material when clutch was abused, ...)
  • Damaged /cracked oil pick up pipe
  • Missing/bad/damaged O-rings in the oil transfer pipe or leak between oil pump and rest of the lubrication system
  • Oil pressure relief valve stuck open, worn or broken spring
  • Fuel in oil (leaking injector) lowering the oil viscosity
  • Oil needs replacement or has incorrect viscosity
  • Oil filter problem
  • Engine idle speed too low
  • Incorrect crankshaft bearings fitted after rebuild
  • Oil gallery O-ring or seal damaged, leaking internally
  • Oil gallery plug missing, removed or damaged



Offline AvgBear

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Re: Low oil pressure light
« Reply #107 on: June 13, 2018, 11:06:19 PM »
Your list is comprehensive, sure enough -- Mr. Haynes breaks it down to 4 bulleted items:
  • Low oil level.
  • Defective oil pump / strainer / pressure relief valve.
  • Improper engine oil viscosity.
  • Camshaft or crankshaft bearings / journals worn.
My experience has offered a little insight into a couple issues:
  • Low oil level -- I've seen a few bikes with quite low oil levels (dangerously low - I thought) that, when replenished to the proper level, appeared to have no engine faults whatsoever.
  • Worn bearings -- back-in-the-day, BSA twins suffered from low oil pressure from the timing-side plain-metal bearing (bushing) on the crankshaft losing too much oil / pressure (clearance too great).
    Excessive bearing clearance may be the No. 1 cause of low oil pressure (IMO)?
  • Overheated oil / deposits (from your list) -- I rode, for several years, a turbocharged m/c that had excessive oil heating and only marginal attempts at oil cooling (a little, finned, spacer beneath the external oil filter). The turbo would get the oil so hot that, when drained, charred / crunchy, "clinkers" came out. Despite this, the engine suffered no ill effects.
Whilst, sadly, none of this may bear - directly - on solving your problem -- it may help focus on where to look (next)..?

Can there be an oil pressure leak from a removable part -- a component that required removal for service and is also part of the oil pressure system (and may've gotten refitted improperly or damaged?)..?
I've ridden all-around the United States and parts of Arkansas.

Offline Roel1964

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Re: Low oil pressure light
« Reply #108 on: June 14, 2018, 12:12:58 PM »
*Originally Posted by AvgBear [+]
Can there be an oil pressure leak from a removable part -- a component that required removal for service and is also part of the oil pressure system (and may've gotten refitted improperly or damaged?)..?
Thanks for sharing your experiences and knowledge !

The only things i can think of that were serviced (recently) in my and Sean's bike and are related to the lubrication system, are :
  • Oil filter : Maybe an oil filter with a problem was fitted. But we both replaced the oil filter and still had the same problem.
  • Oil/Oil level: We both changed the oil again and used a higher viscosity and still had the same problem. Oil level was checked each time after a ride.
  • Hydraulic cam chain tensioner : Sean has replaced this tensioner with a manual one. I still have the original hydraulic tensioner in place. I don't know whether the manual tensioner leaves the oil channel of the original hydraulic tensioner open or if blocks the channel
  • Valve clearance check : In my bike i didn't have to replace valve shims, so the camshafts were not removed. If i read well, Sean has replaced shims, so took out the camshafts.
  • Paper gasket of the right crankcase cover : this cover gives access to the cam chain. While removing the gasket remainders to replace the gasket, i think some of the remainders fell into the engine and got stuck in the oil pickup screen. Not sure how much of this stuff is needed to clog the screen enough to bring the oil pressure down.
  • Rubber gasket of the camshaft cover : When using too much liquid gasket (RTV) to seal the round corners of cover, this stuff gets squeezed out and can get into the oil system, where it gets trapped at the oil pickup screen. Not sure how much of this stuff is needed to clog the screen enough to bring the oil pressure down.

I received most of the new seals, O-rings, sump gasket and a new pressure relief valve by now, so in the next few days i will put my bike together again and do some testing.
If the pressure is still too low, then the next step will be to open the camshaft cover and check for wear in the camshaft bearings/journals, because this can be checked easily.

Offline Seanocaoimh

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Re: Low oil pressure light
« Reply #109 on: June 16, 2018, 06:38:54 PM »
Lads, if I was offered a million euros I couldn't pinpoint the exact cause of the low oil light.I have already mentioned all the checks and changes in have made to the bike. At this stage I feel that it has settled down and sorted itself out.
That might sound strange, but , 2 weeks ago  (as I already posted) I went out doing u-turns etc, the light came on.
Since then I have covered about 350/400 klm,  no problems
What so ever.
slow riding,  u-turns,  everything! !!!!!!! I'm stumped.

 


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