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Offline Roel1964

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Re: Low oil pressure light
« Reply #180 on: November 23, 2018, 08:51:04 AM »
I first did a plastigage test on all the bearings and falsely concluded that all clearances were OK.
HerdyGerdy brought this problem to my attention and he was right that the test can give you false results easily.
Only afterwards i realised why the result was not reliable at all :
The crankshaft is held in place by the bearing shells. The main bearing shells are located in the upper and lower crankcase halves and don't have individual caps.
This means that you can not remove 1 cap of 1 bearing and leave the others bolted down to do a plastigage test. This also means that your crankshaft should be tightly
located in the upper crankcase halve before you do a plastigage test on one of the main bearings and bolt down the lower crankcase halve, thereby pressing all bearing
shells together.
I first removed the crankshaft before i did the plastigage test. So i put back the crankshaft in the upper crankcase halve, then put plastigage on 1 of the journals, and
then bolted down the lower crankcase halve. The plastigage should only get squeezed by the clearance between the crankshaft journal and the crankcase bearing shells.
But what happened was that the plastigage did not only got squeezed by the clearance, but also because the crankshaft was first pushed down tightly into the bearing
shell while bolting down the crankcase halve.
Because the plastigage is squeezed more than only from the clearance, it looks like the clearance is fine.
The same happened, though in less degree, when i was plastigaging the big end bearings, which do have bearing caps, that can be removed individually.
The journal really has to sit tight in the upper bearing shell before plastigaging the journal and bolting down the bearing cap with the lower bearing shell in it.

In my opinion the only really reliable way is to measure the clearance with the right measuring tools, because we are talking about clearances in the range of the height
of a fly-sh*t here. That is why i didn't want to do this in the summer.  :001:

Offline Paulhere

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Re: Low oil pressure light
« Reply #181 on: November 23, 2018, 09:32:58 AM »
Hi Roal,
Awful lot of wear for such a low mileage motor, you said earlier that you put it down to getting hot, was that showing on the temp gauge? Mine runs at 5 bars, that is I bar more than my 1050. Most seem to be similar.

Anything else that could have caused this? I am not aware of any high mile T8's amongst my chums but one is pushing 40k miles with no probs. Very interesting thread.

Good luck with it.
Current bikes Tiger800 XRx, Tiger Sport 1050, Ariel FH 650, Yam Serow 225.

Offline Roel1964

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Re: Low oil pressure light
« Reply #182 on: November 23, 2018, 11:01:17 AM »
*Originally Posted by Paulhere [+]
Hi Roal,
Awful lot of wear for such a low mileage motor, you said earlier that you put it down to getting hot, was that showing on the temp gauge? Mine runs at 5 bars, that is I bar more than my 1050. Most seem to be similar.

Anything else that could have caused this? I am not aware of any high mile T8's amongst my chums but one is pushing 40k miles with no probs. Very interesting thread.

Good luck with it.

I totally agree Paul. The bearings are meant to last over the full lifetime of the bike, when it is maintained and treated normal.
Of course people here don't know my riding style and my maintenance-schedule, but i treat the bike as a baby. I don't sleep when it cries. :001:

I guess there is also a self-destructive and self-accelerating effect once there is some wear : the wear causes lower oil pressure and the lower oil pressure accelerates the wear.
Strange enough i never saw the coolant temperature rise above the normal value. The coolant temperature and oil temperature are related to eachother, but are not the same at all times
during a ride. The heat exchanger couples the oil temperature to the coolant temperature so the bike warms up faster at a cold start and so the oil is cooled down by the coolant when the bike is hot. But what if the cooling system is not working properly and the acidic coolant has caused rust in the water galleries, radiator and rust particles have gathered in the small heat exchanger channels ? I'm not sure if the coolant temperature is a good indication for oil temperature in that situation, because the rust deposits can act as an isolator between water temperature and cylinder temperature.
Besides that : what happens with the oil that escapes the bearings, that get hotter due to less lubrication and extra friction ? This hot oil drops back to the sump and will rise the
overall oil temperature. But will it rise the overall oil temperature as much as when it would circulate all the way through the engine ?

But maybe the bike has run with the wrong oil type (too thin oil) or with a too low oil level, maybe the previous owner did never change the oil/oil filter, maybe there has been water leaking into the oil, maybe there was gasoline leaking into the oil (leaking injectors as AvgBear mentioned before), maybe ....
I have more questions than answers, because i'm not an expert. And even an expert will not live long enough to see all possible fault situations in a life-time.

Offline AvgBear

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Re: Low oil pressure light
« Reply #183 on: November 23, 2018, 06:22:12 PM »
*Originally Posted by Paulhere [+]
Awful lot of wear for such a low mileage motor
Anything else that could have caused this? I am not aware of any high mile T8's amongst my chums but one is pushing 40k miles with no probs.
*Originally Posted by Roel1964 [+]
I totally agree Paul. The bearings are meant to last over the full lifetime of the bike, when it is maintained and treated normal.
I guess there is also a self-destructive and self-accelerating effect once there is some wear : the wear causes lower oil pressure and the lower oil pressure accelerates the wear.
Strange enough i never saw the coolant temperature rise above the normal value. The coolant temperature and oil temperature are related to eachother, but are not the same at all times
during a ride. The heat exchanger couples the oil temperature to the coolant temperature so the bike warms up faster at a cold start and so the oil is cooled down by the coolant when the bike is hot.
But maybe the bike has run with the wrong oil type (too thin oil) or with a too low oil level, maybe the previous owner did never change the oil/oil filter, maybe ....
I have more questions than answers, because i'm not an expert. And even an expert will not live long enough to see all possible fault situations in a life-time.
I doubt that an answer isn't possible -- this the 21st century and ICEs have been around for over 100 years (much is known).
I personally think the temperature considerations are a red-herring (altho, I'll accept being proven wrong).
Oil viscosity (and type) are important factors -- and may be unknown due to the bike's unknown history. Oil viscosity depends upon / works in harness with bearing clearances for oil film dynamics. The greater the clearances the lower/thinner the effective oil viscosity (along with loss of pump pressure).
The plain-metal bearings do not rub on one another -- but, ride on a hydrodynamic wedge of oil caused by differences in relative motion of the two parts (brg. journal & housing/case). There are plain-metal bearing designs that operate well and long with very low (almost no) oil pressure -- the oil just needs to be supplied there to form its wedge.
But, one thing that affects bearing life is the smoothness (or, lack thereof) of the surfaces -- especially the crankshaft journals. Automotive machine shops know this and can determine the crankshaft's "finish" condition. Since you plan on keeping the original crankshaft, having it checked for proper smooth finish may be a good idea?
 
« Last Edit: November 23, 2018, 06:38:41 PM by AvgBear »
"Working on a motorcycle, working well, caring, is to become part of a process, to achieve an inner peace of mind.
The motorcycle is primarily a mental phenomenon."
Robert M. Pirsig

Offline herdygerdy

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Re: Low oil pressure light
« Reply #184 on: November 25, 2018, 12:05:48 AM »
Very interesting analysis Roel, thank you for taking us along on your journey to enlightenment.

To summarise...

1.  it sounds like your original crank is OK and can be confidently be put back into service.  If correct, that must be a huge relief.

2.  Ditto for con rods and cap and camshafts

3.  A fresh set of OEM big end and main bearings carefully selected to bring the calculated clearances down to the lower end of the acceptable limits sounds like the order of the day?

4.  You may like to consider getting the crankshaft 'super finished' (doesn't change external sizing at all).  My friend in NZ uses this on ALL engine components for his Honda 1100 classic Superbike and they are all noticeably smoother and slipperier than untreated parts.

Given the unknown service & usage history of your engine, the hard data you have unearthed during tear down seems consistent with an engine that has not been treated with the tender ministrations it should have been.

Methinks just clean EVERTHING scrupulously, consider the super-finishing process on the crankshaft (and anything else you can get done for not a lot of incremental cost) and replace the bearings and just put it back together.

Be confident you have discovered the root cause (it can't be anything else?) and enjoy the journey.

Keep at it and again, thanks for sharing - 10/10 for both your tenacity and the scientific approach taken.



Offline Paulhere

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Re: Low oil pressure light
« Reply #185 on: November 25, 2018, 09:05:31 AM »
*Originally Posted by Seanocaoimh [+]
Hi Roel,  I thought I had the light problem sorted.I as it stayed off for a few weeks, (regular driving).I advertised the bike for sale and it sold almost immediately. However  :157: the night before the collection,  the light reappeared! !!!!  I had to inform the buyer of this and he consequently pulled out of the deal. Since then I have re installed the original chain tensioner,  so the bike is back to the spec I bought it at.
Will see how I get on over the next few weeks.
 By the way , did you ever get in touch with  Triumph?

Hi Sean,
Mulling over this problem with a pal who'd had it on a Sprint. Traced the oil pressure sensor wiring back, turned out connecter had been switched with eml, likely during servicing. Different bike, different wiring, need a diagram to check if possible on T8. Worth a check.

Current bikes Tiger800 XRx, Tiger Sport 1050, Ariel FH 650, Yam Serow 225.

Offline Roel1964

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Re: Low oil pressure light
« Reply #186 on: January 19, 2019, 04:29:31 PM »
Meanwhile polished the crankshaft journals and camshaft journals so they have a a very smooth "mirror" finish again.
I will clean all the engine parts in warm soapy water, right before i am going to put everything together again. Because now all parts are still covered with oil, so dust/dirt easily sticks everywhere when handling the parts.

I was so curious about the situation in the water channels of the engine, because i was surprised of all the rust i found when i first flushed the cooling system/heat exchanger. So eventually i also removed the head to get a view on the water channels and head gasket.
This is what i found :

The head looks pretty normal to me.


The top of the head gasket shows some rust around the water holes, where there is no black sealing.


The bottom side of the head gasket, that is in contact with the water, shows the effect of cooling water that has become acidic and has been eating away the black gasket sealing material. I remember that i found a black flake
in the cooling water when i flushed it the first time. At that time i had no clue what it was, but now i know it is
a piece of gasket sealing material. The sealing material around the cylinders i could rub away with my finger easily, because it was almost completely dissolved. Only a very thin bubbly skin of sealing was left.




In the pictures below you can see that the walls of the cylinder liners are rusty. So i think that is where all the rust came from the first time i flushed the cooling system.






I guess that proves that there actually was a problem with the cooling system as i expected, namely cooling water that has become acidic (maybe due to mixing different types of coolant..)., causing not only rust on the cylinder liners, but also eating away the head gasket sealing where it was in contact with the cooling water.

Offline AvgBear

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Re: Low oil pressure light
« Reply #187 on: January 20, 2019, 12:11:46 AM »
*Originally Posted by Roel1964 [+]
I was so curious about the situation in the water channels of the engine, because i was surprised of all the rust i found when i first flushed the cooling system/heat exchanger. So eventually i also removed the head to get a view on the water channels and head gasket.
This is what i found :
...there actually was a problem with the cooling system as i expected, namely cooling water that has become acidic (maybe due to mixing different types of coolant..)., causing not only rust on the cylinder liners, but also eating away the head gasket sealing where it was in contact with the cooling water.
Triumph specs: HD4X Hybrid OAT (Organic Acid Technology) pre-mixed coolant/antifreeze which is a hybrid organic acid technology (HOAT) chemistry that combines the best of conventional and organic acid-based chemistry to provide protection against rust and corrosion. Using ethylene glycol for freeze and boilover protection and a hybrid organic acid corrosion inhibitor package to protect engines (and system metals - including aluminum) from liner pitting and corrosion.
Whilst modern engine coolants are engineered for long life - typically 5 years / 100K miles - Triumph reccos changing the T800's coolant every 2 years / 12K miles.
It looks like you may've dodged a bullet head-gasket-wise? -- failure looks imminent?
"Working on a motorcycle, working well, caring, is to become part of a process, to achieve an inner peace of mind.
The motorcycle is primarily a mental phenomenon."
Robert M. Pirsig

Offline SOHUTAA

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Re: Low oil pressure light
« Reply #188 on: January 20, 2019, 05:10:35 AM »
I am afraid to misunderstand !!
All these worries would have been generated only because of the non-replacement of the coolant?
Is it this ?
The Tiger seems to be from 2011, and this liquid would be original?
Can we replace this HD4X Hybrid OAT with a coolant for cars, compatible with aluminum alloys?
« Last Edit: January 20, 2019, 05:12:27 AM by SOHUTAA »

Offline Roel1964

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Re: Low oil pressure light
« Reply #189 on: January 20, 2019, 12:18:22 PM »
*Originally Posted by AvgBear [+]
Triumph specs: HD4X Hybrid OAT (Organic Acid Technology) pre-mixed coolant/antifreeze which is a hybrid organic acid technology (HOAT) chemistry that combines the best of conventional and organic acid-based chemistry to provide protection against rust and corrosion. Using ethylene glycol for freeze and boilover protection and a hybrid organic acid corrosion inhibitor package to protect engines (and system metals - including aluminum) from liner pitting and corrosion.
Whilst modern engine coolants are engineered for long life - typically 5 years / 100K miles - Triumph reccos changing the T800's coolant every 2 years / 12K miles.
It looks like you may've dodged a bullet head-gasket-wise? -- failure looks imminent?

Well, i'm sure that it does not look like a healthy head gasket. I'm surprised that it didn't already leak.

 


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