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Offline Kris

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Smaller Master Cylinder on Tiger
« on: November 11, 2018, 03:59:10 AM »
I was wondering if anyone tried fitting smaller MC on Tiger?  This is my standard upgrade on my bikes.  For some strange reasons manufactures always supply too big MC's which gives an illusion that the firm lever means stronger braking power.  In fact the opposite is true, bigger MC piston means that more force is required to brake.  I changed in several bikes MC 12.7mm to 11mm and the difference was like night and day, one can stop the bike with the pinky.  I also fitted radial MC on my Versys 1000  but that is another matter...

My brakes on Tiger are good, especially with Galfer rotors, but in emergency I need to put a lot of pressure on the lever to stop the bike.  I think that the MC on Tiger is 14mm?, so maybe 12.7mm could work.  Smaller MC means that the lever travels a bit more, but it also gives a sense of better modulation.  Also I am looking into radial mc options.  Even though with twin rotors, 17mm radial mc is usually suggested, I think here 14mm (the smallest one as far as I know available) would be better option. But these radial mc's are not cheap, so i might try first the Honda 12.7 Mc. 

The callipers on Tiger do not look impressive either; they look crappy, too small for such a big bike.  I wonder, why the company did not fit monoblocks or radial callipers??

Offline K1W1

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Re: Smaller Master Cylinder on Tiger
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2018, 05:30:22 AM »
*Originally Posted by Kris [+]
I wonder, why the company did not fit monoblocks or radial callipers??

Because it is an Adventure Touring bike that most owners will want to ride at less than supersonic speeds and very,very few will take onto anything like a race track.

Offline Kris

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Re: Smaller Master Cylinder on Tiger
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2018, 07:45:51 AM »
*Originally Posted by K1W1 [+]
Because it is an Adventure Touring bike that most owners will want to ride at less than supersonic speeds and very,very few will take onto anything like a race track.

that's one reason. but most probably, it is because they are cheap. better brakes are always safer, no matter of riding style.  Versys is sport tourer and comes with monoblocks; well, in this case some riders do race on versys. 

anyway, the smaller MC should improve the braking without spending any money.  unfortunately, i forgot to bring the one from Vulcan S (which I have in Thailand) which I swopped for 11mm Mc.  the oem in Vulcan is 12.7mm and has similar shape to the Tiger's one, so it should fit nicely.  I will report when I change it in the future.  but based on my experience with 4 bikes, I am pretty sure it is the right thing to do.

Online Rtwo

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Re: Smaller Master Cylinder on Tiger
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2018, 09:39:12 AM »
I'm not convinced changing the MC will improve the braking performance per se, you could well get better modulation - which is well worth having.
You'd need to change the calipers and discs as well to improve stopping distances.

Brembo do some nice MCs that will fit OK

Tinkering is what happens when you try something you dont quite know how to do, guided by whim, imagination, and curiosity.

Offline Kris

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Re: Smaller Master Cylinder on Tiger
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2018, 10:30:11 AM »
 :471:
*Originally Posted by Rtwo [+]
I'm not convinced changing the MC will improve the braking performance per se, you could well get better modulation - which is well worth having.
You'd need to change the calipers and discs as well to improve stopping distances.

Brembo do some nice MCs that will fit OK

MC change will not change to stopping power, but the amount of effort needed to stop the bike.  So for instance, with bigger MC to stop you need to use 2 or 3 fingers, while with smaller mc only 1 finger. However, with smaller MC the lever travels more, and should the MC be too small the result is brakes feeling too soft, or even lever hitting the handlebar grip.

There is actually a way to calculate the optimal ratio between mc postion bore and the total surface of the calliper pistons.  I have done it before with my other bikes, with an aid of my friend as my math sucks.  Suffice to say that Versys as Tiger has 14mm MC, but it has total 8 pistons in the front callipers, (Tiger has 4) and while they maybe smaller than in Tiger (I don't remember their size), in total they for certain cover more area.  This means that the MC/callipers ratio in Tiger results in much harder-wooden-feel brakes.  14mm Mc in Tiger makes not sense to me, but it is also a matter of personal preference.   Also for inexperienced riders more wooden brakes can be safer, preventing locking the wheel as one has to press very hard to get the same result.

https://www.vintagebrake.com/mastercylinder.htm
https://www.joesracing.com/rt-4172-master-cylinder-math.html

Offline AvgBear

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Re: Smaller Master Cylinder on Tiger
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2018, 05:56:16 PM »
*Originally Posted by Kris [+]
MC change will not change to stopping power, but the amount of effort needed to stop the bike.
Longer or shorter brake levers will have a similar effect.

*Originally Posted by Kris [+]
There is actually a way to calculate the optimal ratio...but it is also a matter of personal preference.
Okay
   
*Originally Posted by Kris [+]
Also for inexperienced riders more wooden brakes can be safer, preventing locking the wheel as one has to press very hard to get the same result.
With the, almost universal, mandatory adoption of ABS -- "locking the wheel" has been eliminated.
As to "wooden brakes" being "safer" b/c one has to press very hard to get results -- anything that may increase stopping distance can't be "safer".
"Working on a motorcycle, working well, caring, is to become part of a process, to achieve an inner peace of mind.
The motorcycle is primarily a mental phenomenon."
Robert M. Pirsig

Offline Kris

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Re: Smaller Master Cylinder on Tiger
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2018, 03:49:31 AM »
if you look at the table I sent in the link before - https://www.vintagebrake.com/mastercylinder.htm - you can check 28mm(4) combined with different MC sizes.  14mm MC is just very hard; Tiger has 27mm calliper pistons, but it is very close.  According to the law of hydraulics, the smaller MC the more braking power, assuming that the brake lever does not travel too far.  I find the brakes in Tiger too hard.  Not exactly like on/off switch but close to it.  I am confident that going one size lower in MC will give huge improvement to the braking experience.

As an example, my friend's enfield has the oem 12.7mm MC, and mine has 11mm.  His brake lever hardly moves when braking and it lacks any modulation; in fact, it very unpleasant to use it.  Mine brakes without any effort with one finger and gives me great sense of control. 

Here, that guy explains it much better than me:  https://www.customfighters.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56704

Offline Kris

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Re: Smaller Master Cylinder on Tiger
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2018, 04:50:34 AM »
so I made some calculations, and with 4x27mm pistons and 14mm MC the final ratio is 14.88 :1. And with 12.7mm MC the ratio is
18.08 :1.  According to that link, https://www.customfighters.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56704 , 15:1 ratio is wooden and 19:1 is spongy. I personally prefer slightly too soft then too hard.  I don't mind additional brake lever movement, it gives me more sense of modulation.  I am getting secondhand Nissin 12.7 mm Mc on ebay (cheap, 26usd) and will try it out soon.

Offline Paulhere

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Re: Smaller Master Cylinder on Tiger
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2018, 11:19:03 AM »
The T800 is a bit budget build, especially in the brakes department, you're not going to polish a turd easily imo. I also own a Tiger Sport, wish the T800 had those brakes. No comparison in stopping power.

Given the price of the T800 it should have had decent brakes from the off. I went for a test ride back in 2014 then went back & bought the tiger Sport, purely on quality of brakes. I finally succumbed to the lighter weight & nimble T800 2 years later. A great bike let down by cheap brakes, just have to ride a bit slower.  :015:
Tiger800 XRx, Tiger Sport 1050, Ariel FH 650, Yam Serow 225.

Offline Kris

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Re: Smaller Master Cylinder on Tiger
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2018, 12:32:27 PM »
I got Tiger800 in India and I would not consider it cheap with all the taxes.  But brakes can be always fixed.  It is not a rocket science.  I wish I could fit monoblock callipers, but I cannot find any info.  I have spare ones from Versys 1000 which I replaced with Brembo radials, but the spacing of the mounting bolts in Tiger is very unusual, so adaptors are required.  I see that in the new Tiger they fitted Brembo, but still crappy floating callipers; I doubt that they are any better than Nissin ones. 

 


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