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Online T800XC

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Re: 2018-19 led headlights swap XCX/XCA
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2019, 07:37:18 PM »
*Originally Posted by Ally73 [+]
What is left for me to try to find out is what kind of voltage or signal is being driven on those 2 pins. And of course one would still need to get the right type of connector to the LED headlight assembly and tap the wires from what I have already mentioned above.
Without diggin out my diagrams, I'm pretty certain the red & blue wires are CAN bus wires - DON'T GO MESSING unless you know what you're doing with them!

I'm sure I read somewhere that the new LED headlights are controlled and/or monitored via the CAN bus. It would be possible to tap into the CAN bus to see what commands are sent to the headlights, but that's more involved and needs some software and ELM327 knowledge.
  
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Offline chuckxc

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Re: 2018-19 led headlights swap XCX/XCA
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2019, 11:40:02 PM »
You're correct T800XC, the red and blue are definitely the CAN bus wires. The two bikes are most likely electrically compatible in that regard but, as you say, unless you tap into the command protocol, you won't know if the ECU commands/response are compatible. Connecting the XCA headlight to the XCX ECU is too risky for my blood without knowing the details. But if you do Ally73, we'd be interested to know the outcome.

(BTW, I parked my XCX beside an XCA, both with headlights on and beam lights, and the XCX proved to be brighter. I'm keeping my XCX as is.)
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Offline Ally73

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Re: 2018-19 led headlights swap XCX/XCA
« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2019, 04:08:48 AM »
Thanks T800XC and chuckxc for your inputs. This is going to be an interesting project to try solve together since no one yet seems to have shared how it can be done.

Caveat: I'm no electronics expert and have no practical experience yet tapping onto a CAN bus wire, but I did graduate with an E&E degree decades ago  :001: Have to brush up my theory a bit. I'm sure with the right diagrams and documents to those components, the risks can be mitigated.

1. So I know for a fact from the diagrams, the two control wires are also used for controlling the ABS modulator and Immobilizer on both the XCX and XCA models. I don't know what they do exactly but if anyone here knows, that would be great. If it is just a simple enable and disable signal then the risks are not too bad to take. Worse case, one may not have an ABS function  :006:. But if it actually controls how the ABS functions and pulsates then I would definitely be more apprehensive. If anyone out there has the CAN bus signalling info for these components that would be great help. If not, then I'd have to see if I can get hold of an oscilloscope to analyse and decipher what kind of signals happen on those wires i.e. complex or simple commands. Based on basic electronics theory alone, tapping onto these existing 2 wires should not have any impact to existing digital signals as it's not the same as tapping for an analogue accessory. The LED headlight unit is a digital unit and theoretically should not cause any issue on those existing components above. That's how it connects on the XCA model as well, sharing those same two wires that also controls the ABS and Immobilizer.

2. Secondly I suppose some coding is also needed on the ECU to enable the LED headlight function. It would be great if someone who has access to the coding software can see if they can find how to code it and share. I don't have the ELM327 software so I can't tinkle about this just yet. 

If I can get more details and electronics information on the above two areas, I'm sure eventually this can be eventually solved so that owners of XCX or even XRX can look into an original LED headlight upgrade option.

Also it would be great to hear from anyone else who has practical CAN bus knowledge to confirm whether tapping the wires should not cause any interference to existing components on the same wires. That would be reassuring.

cheers!
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 04:19:29 AM by Ally73 »

Offline chuckxc

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Re: 2018-19 led headlights swap XCX/XCA
« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2019, 05:37:19 AM »
Ally73, the CAN bus architecture, electrical characteristics and protocol are well defined and I suggest you read something like this:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAN_bus  before you start.

You will learn about your motorcycle CAN bus and save a lot of time rather than investigating with an o-scope.

Then decide if you want to go further. Be advised,  if you get it wrong you risk damaging your ECU, Instrument display, ABS, etc.





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Offline Ally73

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Re: 2018-19 led headlights swap XCX/XCA
« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2019, 07:02:40 AM »
Hi chuckxc,
I've just read through the wikipedia reference thanks.

What do you mean getting it wrong? Keen to understand better. Are you referring to coding the ECU only or do you mean I need to make sure I tap the wires from the right length or something?

Or is the CAN bus so sensitive to being tapped? If I'm am attempting to use a 3rd party LED headlight unit and connect it to the ECU I would understand that that would definitely be  risky since there is no way to know if the signals are compatible. But if I am using the original LED headlight from Triumph wouldn't that be risk free in terms of compatibility? Plus I'm basically doing the same connection to the same wires as what is shown on an XCA.

Help me understand if there's something else I'm missing in terms of how it may mess up the ECU or ABS. If each component or node is sending it's appropriate ID and bits, wouldnt this be risk free as high priority nodes will always win the arbitration.



Online Stevie.P

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Re: 2018-19 led headlights swap XCX/XCA
« Reply #25 on: August 15, 2019, 09:51:10 AM »
Personally:

Amount of actual night riding = minimal

Current conventional headlights = good, better than previous bikes

Messing up ECU experimenting = listed as 1320  :005:
Also owned my 1979 Bonnie T140E from new!

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Offline Dilbert

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Re: 2018-19 led headlights swap XCX/XCA
« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2019, 12:44:42 PM »
When I bought my 2019 XRx I checked whether you can fit the LED headlamp unit from the XRt and the answer was "NO"

Apparently it needs a new ECU that includes the cornering lamp function, a new headlamp unit and a whole load of other crap, so theoretically possible, but financially prohibitive  :016:
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Offline chuckxc

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Re: 2018-19 led headlights swap XCX/XCA
« Reply #27 on: August 16, 2019, 12:42:54 AM »
*Originally Posted by Ally73 [+]
Hi chuckxc,
I've just read through the wikipedia reference thanks.

What do you mean getting it wrong? Keen to understand better. Are you referring to coding the ECU only or do you mean I need to make sure I tap the wires from the right length or something?

Or is the CAN bus so sensitive to being tapped? If I'm am attempting to use a 3rd party LED headlight unit and connect it to the ECU I would understand that that would definitely be  risky since there is no way to know if the signals are compatible. But if I am using the original LED headlight from Triumph wouldn't that be risk free in terms of compatibility? Plus I'm basically doing the same connection to the same wires as what is shown on an XCA.
Help me understand if there's something else I'm missing in terms of how it may mess up the ECU or ABS. If each component or node is sending it's appropriate ID and bits, wouldnt this be risk free as high priority nodes will always win the arbitration.


All I'm saying is I believe you are messing with a very expensive and critical network on your expensive bike without the knowledge or experience to know the details and ramifications of what your are doing. And all that just to change the lighting. That's a lot of risk for little reward ---IMO.  CAN-bus is not 'Plug-and-Play.
But..it's your call of course. Let us know how you go.
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Online K1W1

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Re: 2018-19 led headlights swap XCX/XCA
« Reply #28 on: August 16, 2019, 01:43:45 AM »
*Originally Posted by Stevie.P [+]
Personally:

Amount of actual night riding = minimal

Current conventional headlights = good, better than previous bikes

Messing up ECU experimenting = listed as 1320  :005:

Adding accessory LED lights even with inflated UK pricing what maybe 200 pounds? (non genuine)
Adding extra lights looks like the no brainer option to me.

Online T800XC

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Re: 2018-19 led headlights swap XCX/XCA
« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2020, 03:30:35 PM »
*Originally Posted by T800XC [+]
I'm sure I read somewhere that the new LED headlights are controlled and/or monitored via the CAN bus. It would be possible to tap into the CAN bus to see what commands are sent to the headlights, but that's more involved and needs some software and ELM327 knowledge.

Someone over at the Explorer/1200 forum asked me about the LED headlights recently so I decided to take a look. Sure enough there are commands on the CAN bus that control them so it would certainly be possible to put the LED headlights (with cornering function) onto an older Tiger 800. The LED headlight has electronics built-in and they appear to just listen-in to the CAN bus data and turn the required lights on based on the messages that are received. In which case, if you know what you're doing it's possible to build a small module that takes the simple halogen headlight on/off voltages and convert these to CAN bus signals to drive the LED headlights.

I've got a small project on the go at the moment that monitors the headlight, fog light & indicator signals on the CAN bus and would allow control or switching of additional lights without having to tap in to the bike's existing wiring. The basics of the project are the same as might be needed for controlling the LED headlights.

A new set of LED headlights aren't cheap, circa 500 I think, but you can pick-up used ones for less than half this price on eBay. I never had an issue with the headlights on my old 800 and Explorer, but I'm impressed with the LED version fitted to my 1200XRT. If I still had my 800 I'd be tempted to get a set just to try them out.
  
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