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Online tcbandituk

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Re: Replacement Levers Wanted
« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2020, 09:17:35 AM »
I've seen someone spat off their bike when their cheap brake lever caused the brake fluid to boil and lock the brakes.
The lever was machined incorrectly and the tab that operated the brake cylinder was too long.

I could tell you the country of origin for the lever but wouldn't want to be called racist  :015:
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Online Djairouks

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Re: Replacement Levers Wanted
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2020, 09:21:43 AM »
*Originally Posted by tcbandituk [+]
I've seen someone spat off their bike when their cheap brake lever caused the brake fluid to boil and lock the brakes.
The lever was machined incorrectly and the tab that operated the brake cylinder was too long.

I could tell you the country of origin for the lever but wouldn't want to be called racist  :015:

You mean the rider caused the fluid to boil, I don't see how you can attribute this to a lever, if you brake like an arse and fluid boils, I would say it's your fault.
Nothing in lever rigidity or lack thereof, or material will have an effect on fluid temperature, braking too damn hard all the time will, it's the rider feeling at fault then.

This also is hardly a street riding issue, only on track can you maybe have this issue.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2020, 09:26:16 AM by Djairouks »

Online tcbandituk

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Re: Replacement Levers Wanted
« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2020, 09:30:19 AM »
You make a lot of incorrect assumptions.

It was an accident on a return ride at a flyers meeting.
Because of this (insurance involved etc) the problem was investigated and the lever was found to be the cause.
The conclusion was the braking from the flyer (not heavy braking as there's plenty of room) warmed the fluid up slightly, the slight
expansion caused wouldn't have been a problem if it had been a std or properly machined lever.
But, because the tab was slightly longer than normal, it didn't allow the pads to back off properly, resulting in the overheating as they rode back (thankfully at a lot lower speeds) down the fire lane.
You could see the difference between a std lever and the offending item visually.
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Online Djairouks

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Re: Replacement Levers Wanted
« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2020, 09:46:24 AM »
*Originally Posted by tcbandituk [+]
You make a lot of incorrect assumptions.

It was an accident on a return ride at a flyers meeting.
Because of this (insurance involved etc) the problem was investigated and the lever was found to be the cause.
The conclusion was the braking from the flyer (not heavy braking as there's plenty of room) warmed the fluid up slightly, the slight
expansion caused wouldn't have been a problem if it had been a std or properly machined lever.
But, because the tab was slightly longer than normal, it didn't allow the pads to back off properly, resulting in the overheating as they rode back (thankfully at a lot lower speeds) down the fire lane.
You could see the difference between a std lever and the offending item visually.

Sorry for my assumptions, with full story it's easier not making false asumptions ! Before you said liquid boiled, now it slightly overheat, hum, exaggerated much, that's why I assumed crazy braking.

I'll say it again it's his fault, because if the lever geometry makes your pads rub the disks when not braking, it's something you should not be mounting on the bike, I personally check my brakes before any ride, to check if pads are okay and no leaks, especially if you say the lever geometry difference was detectable by sight.

Be it fancy brand or "cheap Chinese", brakes are too damn important to just mount "wrong" parts and not check, I would think this is obvious to people but apparently not.

Call me cynical if you want, I'm sorry for your friend, no one wants to crash ever, but I'm curious who ordered this investigation, the insurance ?
« Last Edit: July 01, 2020, 10:04:46 AM by Djairouks »

Online tcbandituk

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Re: Replacement Levers Wanted
« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2020, 10:10:01 AM »
*Originally Posted by Djairouks [+]
Well with full story it's easier not making false asumptions ! Before you said liquid boiled, now it slightly overheat, hum, exaggerated much.

Please misquote me accurately when making these assumptions  :015:
I said 'warmed the fluid up' not 'slightly overheated' on the braking from the flyer.
They boiled on the slow run back down the fire road.

*Originally Posted by Djairouks [+]
Call me cynical if you want, I'm sorry for your friend, no one wants to crash ever, but I'm curious who ordered this investigation, the insurance ?

I can't believe you're cynical, possibly wrong, even if you are obviously the perfect mechanic/rider/tuning guru....

The investigation was done by the organisers in case an insurance claim was made.
As it was the rider took full responsibility because he hadn't checked that the lever was accurately made by a foreign entity who were obviously seeking to undermine his reputation.  :001:



Can you tell I don't like someone more or less calling me a liar?
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Online Djairouks

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Re: Replacement Levers Wanted
« Reply #25 on: July 01, 2020, 10:25:32 AM »
*Originally Posted by tcbandituk [+]
Please misquote me accurately when making these assumptions  :015:
I said 'warmed the fluid up' not 'slightly overheated' on the braking from the flyer.
They boiled on the slow run back down the fire road.

I can't believe you're cynical, possibly wrong, even if you are obviously the perfect mechanic/rider/tuning guru....

The investigation was done by the organisers in case an insurance claim was made.
As it was the rider took full responsibility because he hadn't checked that the lever was accurately made by a foreign entity who were obviously seeking to undermine his reputation.  :001:



Can you tell I don't like someone more or less calling me a liar?

Wow, what ? I did not attack you personnaly man, nor called you a liar, just checking what to me seemed
questionable claims, so please refrain painting me as a know it all that think he's the best and maybe stay
on the facts, which is what is in question here not my person, thank you !
There are many subjects on which I don't claim knowledge, but I'm an engineer that had an eclectic career,
so I will give my thoughts on such subjects I am versed in, as I'm sure you do the same.

The issue with the "chinese crap" mentality, is that a lot of things are made in china, just rebranded and I'm
just always calling out the mentality. You need to check parts for what they are individually, making gross
generalizations is plain stupid, bad parts are bad parts, it's not simply a factor of price or origin.

I am skeptical, not calling lies, because let's not be naive insurance companies wish to find faults, to pay less
that's what they do. Because to me a overheating liquid creates fade, not braking lock, but I am totally open
to the possibility this is a complicated issue or a detail got lost, but I find it's a bit of a shortcut to just believe
all such minority stories and make a generalization with it, that's how so many "legends" still pertain today in
the motorcycling world, that have little grounding in reality.
I think we can agree this is perfectly reasonable isn't it ?

You're free to think what you want and not use these levers, I have no qualms about it.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2020, 10:38:52 AM by Djairouks »

Online tcbandituk

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Re: Replacement Levers Wanted
« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2020, 10:40:03 AM »
OK, I think we'll have to agree to disagree....


And to bring this back to the discussion.
"to me a overheating liquid creates fade"
As far as I understand it, any fluid that boils will expand, which certainly won't cause fade in a brake system unless it boils off altogether...

With regard to the levers of indeterminate origin, I have personally seen issues with a number them, but none with OE levers.
That said, this is over a period of time so who knows, they might be better now?
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Online gordybrock

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Re: Replacement Levers Wanted
« Reply #27 on: July 01, 2020, 10:42:38 AM »
*Originally Posted by tcbandituk [+]
...I could tell you the country of origin for the lever but wouldn't want to be called racist  :015:

 :008: :492: yeah, the insult was a bit OTT
« Last Edit: July 01, 2020, 02:33:43 PM by gordybrock »
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Online Djairouks

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Re: Replacement Levers Wanted
« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2020, 11:54:06 AM »
*Originally Posted by tcbandituk [+]
OK, I think we'll have to agree to disagree....


And to bring this back to the discussion.
"to me a overheating liquid creates fade"
As far as I understand it, any fluid that boils will expand, which certainly won't cause fade in a brake system unless it boils off altogether...

With regard to the levers of indeterminate origin, I have personally seen issues with a number them, but none with OE levers.
That said, this is over a period of time so who knows, they might be better now?

I'm not sure exactly what you don't agree with, but it's fine we all have different opinions on some stories,
what counts in the end is your friend wasn't too hurt and defective levers were changed.

So on the fade issue I'm affraid you're in the wrong here, brake fluid does expend when warm but we have
the reservoir made for this reason, that's why it's not completely full and the slight expension with heat will
just make the fluid level slightly higher.
The lever pushes fluid "down" through the brake lines to the calipers, if the level expends from heat in the
reservoir, the pressure available from applying the lever does not change, the air at the top of the reservoir
will compress.

If you don't believe me read the link bellow, where they explicitly say heating fluid causes fade in the calipers,
even worse if it would boil, there would be cavitation and it would be as if air was in the line, so no more brake
power to stop your vehicle.
https://mocktheorytest.com/resources/overheating-brakes-and-brake-fade-what-can-you-do/
Therein lies my problem, maybe the lever were sh*t, no one made up the accident story, but brake fluid overheating
and locking the brakes are opposite situations, so to me something is missing here.

If you didn't have experience with those new "chinese levers", then maybe listen to the other people here that
also said they never had issues with them.

I'm glad we got back on a fair discussion, it's what we all are here for, thanks man !

« Last Edit: July 01, 2020, 12:06:03 PM by Djairouks »

Offline D6864

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Re: Replacement Levers Wanted
« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2020, 12:10:28 PM »
*Originally Posted by tcbandituk [+]
As far as I understand it, any fluid that boils will expand, which certainly won't cause fade in a brake system unless it boils off altogether...
Boiling fluid is precisely the cause of brake fade - the vapour bubbles created are compressible and prevent you from raising sufficient brake pressure.

Anyway, pleased that you acknowledge the rider's responsibility for not checking that the lever fitted and functioned correctly.

I'm another very satisfied user of <large far eastern country's> levers.

 


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