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Offline Fazer

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Re: Germany and Austria trying to impose limitations on motorcycle usage
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2020, 10:26:28 AM »
Being a bit of a nerd, this discussion got me investigating sound measurements. It seems that there are 2 ways to measure sound, either the sound pressure level or the sound intensity. The analogy with heat energy is that sound pressure level is equivalent to the temperature caused by a heat source whereas sound intensity is equivalent to the power of the heat source. Apparently, it is more difficult to measure intensity than pressure level so I suspect that roadside units would measure pressure level. Also, if the analogy holds true its the temperature caused by a heat source that we sense not the power so maybe we sense the sound pressure level rather than the intensity. Any experts who can answer that?

What prompted me to investigate this were the statements that 3dB is equivalent to doubling the sound (is that level or intensity?). The definition of dBs is 20 x Log R where R is a ratio of quantities. (Log is to the base 10). If R=2 then LogR =0.3 so 20 x Log R = 6. So 6 dB is a doubling of the quantities. Further investigation reveals that a doubling of the sound pressure level is 6dB whereas doubling of the sound intensity is 3dB (dont understand that yet!)

Sorry if this is too boring and technical for this Forum.

EDIT - just come across a report prepared by Atkins Consulting Engineers about roadside sound measurements and as I suspected it is sound pressure levels that are measured not sound intensity.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2020, 10:36:10 AM by Fazer »

Offline Djairouks

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Re: Germany and Austria trying to impose limitations on motorcycle usage
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2020, 10:37:05 AM »
*Originally Posted by Fazer [+]
Being a bit of a nerd, this discussion got me investigating sound measurements. It seems that there are 2 ways to measure sound, either the sound pressure level or the sound intensity. The analogy with heat energy is that sound pressure level is equivalent to the temperature caused by a heat source whereas sound intensity is equivalent to the power of the heat source. Apparently, it is more difficult to measure intensity than pressure level so I suspect that roadside units would measure pressure level. Also, if the analogy holds true its the temperature caused by a heat source that we sense not the power so maybe we sense the sound pressure level rather than the intensity. Any experts who can answer that?

What prompted me to investigate this were the statements that 3dB is equivalent to doubling the sound (is that level or intensity?). The definition of dBs is 20 x Log R where R is a ratio of quantities. (Log is to the base 10). If R=2 then LogR =0.3 so 20 x Log R = 6. So 6 dB is a doubling of the quantities. Further investigation reveals that a doubling of the sound pressure level is 6dB whereas doubling of the sound intensity is 3dB (dont understand that yet!)

Sorry if this is too boring and technical for this Forum.

Because our hears function only one way, that's what sometimes is puzzling to people, I am since the age of 14, playing electric guitar and this is known fact in music, that when it comes to your hears, the doubling of the amplifier power, ie, 50 to 100 watts, causes a 3dB power increase.

It's a complicated subject, there's not really a consensus with perceived loudness, because perception of humans, are that, they are subject to influence, not direct measurements.

This explains it pretty well for the nerds  :038:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/geoffthegreygeek.com/amplifier-power/%3famp

Offline Rtwo

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Re: Germany and Austria trying to impose limitations on motorcycle usage
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2020, 10:39:14 AM »
Jeez, it must be 40 years since I last did it but ...
I seem to recall 10 log is for power measurements and 20 log for quantity (ie V)
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Offline Fazer

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Re: Germany and Austria trying to impose limitations on motorcycle usage
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2020, 10:45:34 AM »
*Originally Posted by Rtwo [+]
Jeez, it must be 40 years since I last did it but ...
I seem to recall 10 log is for power measurements and 20 log for quantity (ie V)

I seem to remember that as well now 😀. I now recall that its because the power of an electrical source is dependent on V squared (cant do superscript on my iPad keyboard)

Thanks for that link Djairouks which states increasing the sound pressure by a factor of two (double) requires an increase of 6dB (x4) in amplifier power and further backs up Rtwos comment.

Whod have thought that reading a motorcycling forum would be such an educational experience. 😂😂😂
« Last Edit: June 22, 2020, 10:49:00 AM by Fazer »

Offline Derchef1962

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Re: Germany and Austria trying to impose limitations on motorcycle usage
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2020, 02:25:36 PM »
*Originally Posted by mcinlb [+]
Surely this is something that the "States / Countries / EU should take up with the manufacturers instead of moving the goalposts on an already existing standard and possibly prosecuting people who have bought a bike with a standard "E" approved exhaust.
at least the initiative in Germany will only apply to new bikes being registered for the first time after the new law comes into force.
Different for the current ban in Austria/Tyrol: this applies to bikes which are perfectly legal
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Offline Djairouks

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Re: Germany and Austria trying to impose limitations on motorcycle usage
« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2020, 02:48:49 PM »
*Originally Posted by Fazer [+]
I seem to remember that as well now 😀. I now recall that its because the power of an electrical source is dependent on V squared (cant do superscript on my iPad keyboard)

Thanks for that link Djairouks which states increasing the sound pressure by a factor of two (double) requires an increase of 6dB (x4) in amplifier power and further backs up Rtwos comment.

Whod have thought that reading a motorcycling forum would be such an educational experience. 😂😂😂

Well all of us sure don't only do motorcycling, that's what is interesting, sharing your other knowledge here.

Again, there's no standard for who's to say this exact amount is twice loud, human hearing varies drastically, me with 20+ years of musical training, I am more sensitive than other people to loud sound.
And as we age hearing loss also gives differences, so it's not as cut and clear as sight, hearing is more or less 4-6dB for double loudness.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2020, 02:50:22 PM by Djairouks »

Offline kokkios

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Re: Germany and Austria trying to impose limitations on motorcycle usage
« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2020, 06:03:47 PM »
In the following video 7:05 , if my german is good enough, it is referring to lower speed limits specific to motorcycles in an area called Wermelskirchen whereas higher speed limits will apply for other vehicles   :087: :187: :112:


Offline Derchef1962

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Re: Germany and Austria trying to impose limitations on motorcycle usage
« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2020, 09:07:48 PM »
*Originally Posted by kokkios [+]
In the following video 7:05 , if my german is good enough, it is referring to lower speed limits specific to motorcycles in an area called Wermelskirchen whereas higher speed limits will apply for other vehicles   :087: :187: :112:

/>

Unfortunately not that uncommon. We had several bans on roads only applying to motorcycles.
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Online 1284rider

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Re: Germany and Austria trying to impose limitations on motorcycle usage
« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2020, 09:21:08 PM »
*Originally Posted by Derchef1962 [+]
Unfortunately not that uncommon. We had several bans on roads only applying to motorcycles.

I wonder if perhaps part of the reason for that is the number of selfish motorcyclists speeding around with their modified loud exhausts who think that the existing laws don't apply to them.  If motorcycling is seen as being anti-social then inevitably action will be taken and it should come as no surprise.  As is so often the case, the irresponsible minority will spoil it for the responsible majority.

Offline Djairouks

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Re: Germany and Austria trying to impose limitations on motorcycle usage
« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2020, 09:52:37 PM »
*Originally Posted by 1284rider [+]
I wonder if perhaps part of the reason for that is the number of selfish motorcyclists speeding around with their modified loud exhausts who think that the existing laws don't apply to them.  If motorcycling is seen as being anti-social then inevitably action will be taken and it should come as no surprise.  As is so often the case, the irresponsible minority will spoil it for the responsible majority.

Yes of course the few idiots spoil it for the majority of proper motorcyclists, but I'd argue that there is a limit which is called, living in a "free" country, banning things that are not immediately dangerous, is a tad dictatorial in my book, not sure population will be so happy.

Smoking is bad on your health, yet no country would ban that, would not be possible, I really don't know what's happening to Austria !

 


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