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Offline grizzlybear

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Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2020, 10:02:33 AM »
I only tried once to get fuel pipe off, and failed. Ain't tried again, that was 2013  :492:

Might buy that tool though 👍
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Online Stevie.P

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Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2020, 10:19:44 AM »
*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
The valve timing only needs to be done, slightly counter-intuitively, at the 12k service but not at later services - ..

What issue of service schedule do you have and could you put it up if possible.

I had mine under a service plan initially and have copies of the 14th(2014), 16th(2016) and 18th(2017) Issue and it kept changing. :027:
On issue 14 it was clearly marked as required on 1st 12k service only.
On issue 16 it had been removed altogether.
On issue 18 it shows as being requires on every 12 & 24k service.
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Offline awjdthumper

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Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2020, 01:45:10 PM »
Rightly or wrongly, I was going by the service schedule given in the Haynes manual. Although I doubt that I will get to 24k on my Tiger 800 XCA, if I do, then I would still do the valve timing check whatever the service schedule said.  As explained, the check is fairly straightforward using a suitable camshaft locking bar.

In practice, what will be noticed first (I would expect) with any timing chain stretch is that the crankshaft timing marks won't line up after the camshafts have been locked (there's a lot more timing chain between the crankshaft sprocket and the camshaft sprockets than between the camshaft sprockets). On mine, the error at the crankshaft is < 2 degrees but this translates to < 1 degrees at the camshaft (it spins at half the speed).

I haven't seen a suitable valve timing spec but I would have thought anything less than, say, 3 degrees at the camshaft is going to be ok. Clearly, on earlier Tiger 800's, no valve timing adjustment was possible and, if it was too far out, then you would be looking at replacing the timing chain. On the later engines, like mine, you have option of resetting the valve timing but I'm not sure there is a clear spec to judge when this is necessary.

The spec I will use is an error of half a tooth on the crankshaft cog which has the timing mark on it. This would equate to 3.5 degrees at the crankshaft.
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Online Stevie.P

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Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2020, 03:42:33 PM »
*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
Rightly or wrongly, I was going by the service schedule given in the Haynes manual.

I wasn't criticising your decision if it appeared that way but purely trying to find/confirm the latest official answer. As a relatively new member you may not be aware that the controversy and discussion around the process and merits of this service item has been going on here for years. When I first queried the process with my dealers workshop staff in 2015 regarding my Street Triple (which this was applicable too) they hadn't even heard of it, fobbing me off saying they check the valve/shim clearances anyway. :211:

I'm due to do the 24k service on mine soon, definitely before going on the Frankfurt Megameet in May, so will be visiting the dealer fairly soon to order the tools (except the stupidly priced torque screwdriver) and will see if I can scrounge a copy of the latest service schedule. :028:
Also owned my 1979 Bonnie T140E from new!

We don't stop playing because we grow old .. WE GROW OLD BECAUSE WE STOP PLAYING!!!


Offline awjdthumper

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Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2020, 04:22:04 PM »
I didn't take it as criticism - I was sort of apologising for relying on a Haynes manual!!

I'd seen previous posts regarding this issue but, being pragmatic and an engineer, I came to my own conclusion regarding this service procedure. As said, if you are going to check the valve clearances, doing the valve timing check is pretty simple. It's then a question of what to do with the result :084:

Unfortunately, since the last post, I've done an initial valve clearance check and got what I've seen other people have reported. The inlet clearance are all in the middle of the spec range but the exhaust clearances are all in the 0.25 - 0.28 mm range; that is, almost 0.1 mm too tight which is basically what the change in the 6 x shims will need to be.

A bit disappointed with this result which seems much worst than I've seen in any other motorcycle engine!

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Offline AvgBear

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Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2020, 04:57:32 PM »
*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
the trick would then be to do up the sprocket bolts while tensioning the timing chain with the tensioning needing a special Triumph tool. Had my valve timing needed to be adjusted, I would have given it a go but this is definitely not a procedure for the faint hearted given the problems that could result if you get it wrong!
Yes, any compressed valve springs want to rotate their cam-shafts causing difficulty of parts staying in-place.
I once replaced a long cam-shaft cog-belt on a 4-cam Subaru boxer with many auxiliary pulleys and tensioner -- gettin/keeping everything aligned was a task.

*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
The valve timing only needs to be done, slightly counter-intuitively, at the 12k service but not at later services - this is presumably because of the need to account for any initial timing chain stretch.
I believe Triumph (manufacturers) are responsible for their products meeting current emissions regs. for a certain length of time -- and, some engines may be on the 'ragged edge' of meeting those regs. (thus requiring stricter attention).

*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
I haven't seen a suitable valve timing spec but I would have thought anything less than, say, 3 degrees at the camshaft is going to be ok. Clearly, on earlier Tiger 800's, no valve timing adjustment was possible and, if it was too far out, then you would be looking at replacing the timing chain. On the later engines, like mine, you have option of resetting the valve timing but I'm not sure there is a clear spec to judge when this is necessary.
I haven't seen a valve-timing specs, either -- but don't doubt it's available - somewhere? Re slotted cam sprockets for earlier T800s -- they were available ala Triumph 675 mods. Those who blueprint engines, change cam-shafts, modify, adjust cam-lobe centers -- all need such. I assume early T800s will accept the later sprockets?
Triumph FSM (and Mr. Haynes) offer measurement specs. and procedure for determining limit of cam-chain wear (stretch) -- for deciding replacement.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2020, 05:27:41 PM by AvgBear »
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Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2020, 05:41:50 PM »
*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
As explained, the check is fairly straightforward using a suitable camshaft locking bar.

In practice, what will be noticed first (I would expect) with any timing chain stretch is that the crankshaft timing marks won't line up after the camshafts have been locked (there's a lot more timing chain between the crankshaft sprocket and the camshaft sprockets than between the camshaft sprockets).

I have to disagree, if the sprocket lines were spot on aligned from new then unless the marks were setup at the factory out of alignment for some corrective reason (serious accumulated max/min manufacturing tolerances of the assembled components, if even checked) or the timing has been previously adjusted by a previous owner then locking the cams with the tool will always align the sprocket marks irrelevant of chain. To exaggerate for the purpose of picturing it, the cams (and crank) are locked, the sprocket lines will be spot on, but the chain between the sprockets actually droops down 1/4".

*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
On the later engines, like mine, you have option of resetting the valve timing but I'm not sure there is a clear spec to judge when this is necessary.

The spec I will use is an error of half a tooth on the crankshaft cog which has the timing mark on it. This would equate to 3.5 degrees at the crankshaft.

The whole setting of the camshaft timing is really central around the correct chain tension and hence the tensioner tool and torque screwdriver. The crank is rotated 180 degrees from alignment and the 1 visible screw on each sprocket just slacked off to allow movement. The crank is then rotated 180 degrees again to align the TDC marks and fit locking pin on crank and cams, unless out of alignment when the other 2 visible sprocket screws can be slackened before and a sprocket moved to enable locking. This now ensures correct timing and the important part is now ensuring the correct tension on the timing chain, hence the required replacement tensioner tools. With the correct tension applied to the chain and the sprockets free to move everything falls into its correct place. The crank is locked so correct tension on chain from crank all the way around over the cam sprockets back to the (relatively irrelevant) back side of the inlet cam puts the sprockets in the required correct position (regardless of alignment lines). Now every thing is timed correct and with the cams still locked and sprockets held by chain tension the 2 visible screws are nipped up enough or torqued up to stop any movement when subsequently turning the engine (I would nip initially and go back around and torque), the locking pins removed, turned 180 degrees and the other 2 sprocket screws similarly tightened. Rotate a couple of turns and re-align crank and re-pin and check camshaft locking plate still slots straight in .... remove locking tools ... job done.

The error for some could be the belief that the camshaft sprocket lines must both align with the cylinder block head on completion but this clearly won't happen once/if there has been a change in the chain (i.e stretch/wear) and sprocket positions.

Just as an aside - the fact that I now fully understand this process on the Tiger actually helps clear an issue I once wondered about with the Street Triple. Unlike the Tiger the Street Triple had more of a reputation (definitely on the forum) for cam chain tensioner issues (rattling) and a favourite solution was to fit an APE manual adjuster in place of the hydraulic one. My concern with this was the method of using judgement for how tight to screw the adjuster (slack rattily and overtight not good) but if I was to have similar issues with the Tiger tensioner I would fit the APE adjuster and know that by tightening the adjuster screw directly to only 0.6nm against the chain then (presumably/theoretically) it would be applying exactly the same tension as the hydraulic tensioner design, without the associated rattling waiting for oil pressure.
Also owned my 1979 Bonnie T140E from new!

We don't stop playing because we grow old .. WE GROW OLD BECAUSE WE STOP PLAYING!!!


Offline awjdthumper

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Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2020, 07:47:53 PM »
*Originally Posted by Stevie.P [+]
I have to disagree, if the sprocket lines were spot on aligned from new then unless the marks were setup at the factory out of alignment for some corrective reason (serious accumulated max/min manufacturing tolerances of the assembled components, if even checked) or the timing has been previously adjusted by a previous owner then locking the cams with the tool will always align the sprocket marks irrelevant of chain. To exaggerate for the purpose of picturing it, the cams (and crank) are locked, the sprocket lines will be spot on, but the chain between the sprockets actually droops down 1/4".
I think you may be reading more into what I said than was intended. Until you mentioned it, and I went and had a look, I hadn't realised there were (very small) timing marks on the camshaft sprockets. Having looked, the marks are definitely aligned once the locking bar is in place which, presumably, was the way the engine was set up at the factory. The only point I was making was that, if the crankshaft marks were aligned in this configuration at the factory, any timing chain wear would result in them not being aligned now.
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Online Stevie.P

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Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2020, 08:26:55 PM »
*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
I think you may be reading more into what I said than was intended.

:431:
No, didn't read more into it ... happy to admit my error, I didn't read what you stated clearly ... I actually missed that you were referring to having the cam locking bar fitted without the crank locking pin fitted. :164: :003:

But hopefully the rest of my description beyond that paragraph helps .... (at least someone) ... get a clearer picture of the process. :027:  :002:
Also owned my 1979 Bonnie T140E from new!

We don't stop playing because we grow old .. WE GROW OLD BECAUSE WE STOP PLAYING!!!


Offline awjdthumper

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Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2020, 06:29:08 AM »
Fortunately, my valve timing check showed everything was ok (as far as I was concerned) and I therefore did not have to face up to the possibility of having to adjust it :152:

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