Author [ES] [CA] [PL] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [DK] [NO] [GR] [TR] Topic: The Dreaded 12k Service  (Read 2648 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online Stevie.P

  • Tiger Jedi
  • *****
  • Posts: 3528
  • 'Arte et Marte'
  • Bike: 2015 Tiger XRt
  • Location: Plymouth, UK
Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
« Reply #30 on: October 05, 2020, 09:54:00 AM »
*Originally Posted by Rtwo [+]
Re the special tools
You can presume that the chain is under tension before you start?
So do the chain timing before doing the shims

No special tools needed



I'd like to see you do that. :084:  Unless you have some magic way to do it with the engine running then the chain won't be under proper (or possibly any) tension without oil pressure, only sat in the rough slack take up position ..... hence why some owners notice the rattle on start up before full oil pressure applies tension and more noticeable when the tensioner is nearing moving to the next notch on the barrel slack adjuster.  :027:

Though I did as a REME apprentice mechanic have to learn to set Bedford RL tappets with the engine running .... you made a mess of a lot of feeler blades before the instructor told you that you'd got it right.  :005: :008:
Also owned my 1979 Bonnie T140E from new!

We don't stop playing because we grow old .. WE GROW OLD BECAUSE WE STOP PLAYING!!!


Online Stevie.P

  • Tiger Jedi
  • *****
  • Posts: 3528
  • 'Arte et Marte'
  • Bike: 2015 Tiger XRt
  • Location: Plymouth, UK
Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
« Reply #31 on: October 05, 2020, 11:16:18 AM »
.... though Haynes do indicate you could get away without the tensioner tools by pushing something suitable through the tensioner hole and applying pressure to the chain, but like my previous concern relating to the APE manual tensioner how do you judge applying 0.6nm.  :027:

Given that these modern bikes use such low torques compared to older bikes I'm happy to buy the 0-20mm torque screwdriver I've selected as it can be used on the bulk of the bikes smaller fixings.  :028:
Also owned my 1979 Bonnie T140E from new!

We don't stop playing because we grow old .. WE GROW OLD BECAUSE WE STOP PLAYING!!!


Offline awjdthumper

  • Tiger Pro
  • ***
  • Posts: 111
  • Bike: Tiger 800 XCA
  • Location: Abingdon
Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
« Reply #32 on: October 05, 2020, 12:52:43 PM »
After I've reassembled the camshaft assembly, I might see how much difference doing the tensioning by hand makes to the valve timing measurement - I suspect, not a lot. However, the problem is likely to be that you would then need 3 separate hands to do the job possibly making it a two man job!
Suzuki GSX1400, Armstrong MT560 + collection of classic British bikes

Online Stevie.P

  • Tiger Jedi
  • *****
  • Posts: 3528
  • 'Arte et Marte'
  • Bike: 2015 Tiger XRt
  • Location: Plymouth, UK
Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
« Reply #33 on: October 05, 2020, 01:02:14 PM »
We are probably only talking really about the cam timing retarding a few degrees at maximum and as mentioned this is probably purely to maintain and meet the tight Euro emissions standards ... which for us Brits (at least) is pretty irrelevant as we don't test them on a motorcycle MOT ... YET.

:084: Absolutely no idea but could, for example, a Brit touring in say the Paris new pollution zone system or in somewhere strict like Switzerland be pulled over and have their emissions tested and consequently fail and maybe face a huge fine or something as drastic as bike confiscation? ... if not now but something likely to come as they push for more electric vehicles. :027:
Also owned my 1979 Bonnie T140E from new!

We don't stop playing because we grow old .. WE GROW OLD BECAUSE WE STOP PLAYING!!!


Online Rtwo

  • Tiger Jedi
  • *****
  • Posts: 4513
  • Bike: KTM 1290 SAS
  • Location: Co. Durham
Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
« Reply #34 on: October 06, 2020, 08:05:59 AM »
*Originally Posted by Stevie.P [+]
I'd like to see you do that. :084:  Unless you have some magic way to do it with the engine running then the chain won't be under proper (or possibly any) tension without oil pressure, only sat in the rough slack take up position ..... hence why some owners notice the rattle on start up before full oil pressure applies tension and more noticeable when the tensioner is nearing moving to the next notch on the barrel slack adjuster.  :027:

Though I did as a REME apprentice mechanic have to learn to set Bedford RL tappets with the engine running .... you made a mess of a lot of feeler blades before the instructor told you that you'd got it right.  :005: :008:

The method I mentioned was used and recommended in the TEx manual the Mark Barret produced, his literature on the TEx and the Tiger (and others) is quite highly regarded and I see no reason to doubt it.
To my mind the tensioner gets adjusted by oil pressure but it's a one way journey, it doesn't lose tension as pressure drops, unless we're talking about the tiny difference between notches on it?
The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
....George Orwell

Check the Facts !!

Offline awjdthumper

  • Tiger Pro
  • ***
  • Posts: 111
  • Bike: Tiger 800 XCA
  • Location: Abingdon
Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
« Reply #35 on: October 06, 2020, 08:56:45 AM »
It looks to me as though either approach should work but the use of the special tools would make the job much easier. Also, relying on the hydraulic tensioner would mean that you would need to adjust the valve timing before checking and adjusting the valve clearances (which might need the tensioner to be removed) rather than the other way around with the latter being my preference.
Suzuki GSX1400, Armstrong MT560 + collection of classic British bikes

Offline awjdthumper

  • Tiger Pro
  • ***
  • Posts: 111
  • Bike: Tiger 800 XCA
  • Location: Abingdon
Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
« Reply #36 on: October 12, 2020, 06:53:02 AM »
Finally got around to putting the top end of the engine back together after overhauling both the back end and front end of the bike in the meantime.

The good news was that all the clearances are now back in spec. The inlet clearances were untouched and already mid-spec but the exhaust clearances are now close to the max at .375 mm.

Unfortunately, I then ran into problems installing the cam chain tensioner. This had to be reset first by pushing in the piston fully and then holding it in place via the snap ring. However, in the MuddySump video he appears to snap the tensioner fully home before tightening up the two screws, whereas, I ended up tightening the screws to pull it fully into place. There was no snap!

I then rotated the engine four times as recommended but on each revolution the tensioner makes a clicking sound. My problem with this is that I don't actually know why the tensioner is doing this and whether this is normal? I know how the tensioner is supposed to work and can sort of see why it might make a clicking sound as the resistance clip jumps from groove to groove as the piston is pushed forward by the spring to tension the cam chain. But I don't understand why it is making a clicking sound every time I rotate the engine after re-installing it!

Has anyone experienced this noise before? Unfortunately, the MuddySump video is speeded up as he rotates the engine 4 times and so I can't tell from it what is normal!
Suzuki GSX1400, Armstrong MT560 + collection of classic British bikes

Online Rtwo

  • Tiger Jedi
  • *****
  • Posts: 4513
  • Bike: KTM 1290 SAS
  • Location: Co. Durham
Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
« Reply #37 on: October 12, 2020, 07:03:33 AM »
Yeah, I've had that. I suspect the snap ring gets slightly deformed.
The solution I found was a sharp tap to the rear tensioner blade with a soft drift (I use a nylon one) to shock the tensioner into coming out to play
The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
....George Orwell

Check the Facts !!

Offline awjdthumper

  • Tiger Pro
  • ***
  • Posts: 111
  • Bike: Tiger 800 XCA
  • Location: Abingdon
Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
« Reply #38 on: October 12, 2020, 08:16:29 AM »
I'll try that but as far as I can tell the tensioner is fully tensioning the chain. I know the snap ring holds the piston in the reset position during installation but I don't know how it actually disengages and whether it then serves another purpose. The Haynes manual recommends rotating the engine backwards by 1/4 turn to free the snap ring -  this must push the piston in slightly taking pressure off the snap ring and allowing it to retract.

My snap ring must have disengaged as soon as I rotated the engine clockwise. What I actually see is that when the engine rotates, at one point the tensioner blade moves slightly to the left - perhaps the cam chain is tighter at that point and the tensioner is simply being pushed in to accommodate this. Therefore, what I may be hearing is the resister spring hitting the end stop? However, I wouldn't have expected it to make much noise in doing this.


The other thing that confuses me is the Haynes manual where it says that you should check the tensioner piston is engaging correctly with the end of the tensioner blade. However, I can't see how it can possibly engage incorrectly given that it is pivoted at one end and has very little lateral play. Also, it is impossible to look down inside the cam chain tunnel to actually see what is going on - the cam chain is in the way!

It's possible that when the engine runs and the tensioner fills with damping oil, the noise will disappear but I am reluctant to try this until I'm sure the tensioner is working properly!
Suzuki GSX1400, Armstrong MT560 + collection of classic British bikes

Offline awjdthumper

  • Tiger Pro
  • ***
  • Posts: 111
  • Bike: Tiger 800 XCA
  • Location: Abingdon
Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
« Reply #39 on: October 12, 2020, 10:28:06 AM »
Does anyone out there know how the tensioner actually works in practice?

What I don't understand is whether it is the spring pressure or engine oil pressure acting on the piston that creates the timing chain tension. Does oil pressure do this or is the oil there just for damping.

I assume it is oil pressure and the ratchet mechanism is there to stop the tension dropping too much when the engine is switched off. If this is the case then what purpose does the internal spring serve? Is it there just as an aid during tensioner installation?

I may have to take the tensioner off again to check but I assume that, even with the ratchet mechanism working, there is still some backward movement of the piston (5-10 mm) possible before the ratchet mechanism stops it. I'm assuming that this is probably what I am hearing on my engine but I not quite sure why it is happening.

If anyone knows how this device works, I would greatly appreciate an explanation!
Suzuki GSX1400, Armstrong MT560 + collection of classic British bikes

 


Recent Topics


winded-staunch