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Offline flyingburrito

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Re: Hepco and Becker upper tank protection bars issue. Tiger 900
« Reply #30 on: April 05, 2021, 07:14:06 PM »
*Originally Posted by Djairouks [+]
If a company doing all sorts of protective parts, replies "good and tight" I would be pretty
ticked off, because then do they really know what they do and have a research design team
doing they jobs and not only people designing bars anyhow withtout much testing...

Just for clarification...The retailer was the one who stated "good and tight"...I can't really fault them.     If H and B did not supply specs, what more could the retailer say.         This is solely on H and B.


*Originally Posted by Paulhere [+]
Just guessing the H&B bolts are a longer version of the OEM bolts they replace, wouldn't the same torque apply?

They are not the same OEM style bolts.  The OEM bolts have no markings.  The hardware supplied from H and B are 8.8 metric.   It's unknown what grade the OEM bolts are.

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Offline Paulhere

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Re: Hepco and Becker upper tank protection bars issue. Tiger 900
« Reply #31 on: April 05, 2021, 07:27:30 PM »
*Originally Posted by flyingburrito [+]

They are not the same OEM style bolts.  The OEM bolts have no markings.  The hardware supplied from H and B are 8.8 metric.   It's unknown what grade the OEM bolts are.

The oem bolts wouldn't be less than 8.8 & unlikely stronger. oem torque value imho would be fine.
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Offline flyingburrito

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Re: Hepco and Becker upper tank protection bars issue. Tiger 900
« Reply #32 on: April 19, 2021, 10:05:11 PM »
I reached out to the retailer for an update on the Hepco and Becker broken bolts issue (not much of an update)

*****
Sorry for the delayed reply on this.


After looking into analysis options and spending quite a bit of time on this, the ones we have found cost thousands for an official test and that is not something we want to spend. However, after talking to those who do these tests, they have unofficially said the bolt looks like it was overtightened based on the way it broke and how it looks. I understand this is not a fact based response and the facts are what we are both after. We will continue to look into this and conversate with the manufacturer to see what the next step is and if they are willing to cover the cost of the test for us. Unfortunately at this time I do not have a fact based reply for you but hope to in a few weeks time.


*****

The recurring "overtightening" story is not sitting well with me. I did not overtighten these bolts....and again...no torque spec was provided by H and B. I also thought it was stated previously that the bolt would be sent to H and B to be analyzed.... that hasn't happened...and from the above communication, doesn't sound like it will now.

Asking H and B to make this right. If they do, they have a customer for life....if not...well, we'll just see how that goes.
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Offline flyingburrito

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Re: Hepco and Becker upper tank protection bars issue. Tiger 900
« Reply #33 on: May 09, 2021, 06:11:33 PM »
Still awaiting some kind of response that isn't the run-around.

  I created a video to share the current details.

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Offline flyingburrito

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Re: Hepco and Becker upper tank protection bars issue. Tiger 900
« Reply #34 on: May 10, 2021, 12:48:25 AM »
I would have edited my last post...but it seems you can't edit after a certain amount of time.

The "general" torque spec pamphlet was brought up again elsewhere.  Someone was told by H and B to use those general values.     Wow.

 Here are the actual numbers.

Those general torque specs in that pamphlet say "screw w/nut".   There is no "nut"...these  bolts are threaded into the frame at the cylinder head mounting point.     Torque spec for the cylinder head to frame (from my dealer) states 48 nm.        The "general spec" from H and B pamphlet says the M10x1,25x110 (rated 8.8)  torque should be 26nm.      If anyone has used these values,  I suggest you recheck the tightness of your mounting bolts.    I would also go a step further and replace them if you've only had 26nm on them due to improper loading stresses, especially if you're doing any significant off road.    I never received the "general" torque specs pamphlet to begin with, it's worthless for this application anyway.     Just don't end up in my shoes.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2021, 12:52:13 AM by flyingburrito »
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Offline flyingburrito

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Re: Hepco and Becker upper tank protection bars issue. Tiger 900
« Reply #35 on: Yesterday at 10:51:08 PM »
Here is a follow up on the Hepco and Becker bars failure issue I've been dealing with. (I'll be sharing this in multiple threads/message boards/venues)     I'm not on Farcebook.  feel free to share this on any social media sites (in it's entirety) 

First things first. Ed Stiley (at MotoMachines) reached out today and we spoke at length. They have been fair throughout this process and they have been grappling with unknowns as well. This is why it's taken some time to get some answers. For the record, my intention was never to cause trouble for Motomachines, my beef has been with Hepco and Becker. Apologies to MM if at times I have been frustrated, it's tough to see $300+ dollars of parts laying on the floor (not to mention the cost of having the broken bolts professionally extracted) Motomachines has footed the bill (not an insignificant cost) to have my bolt analyzed. Hopefully, H and B will reimburse them for this. In my mind, this is not a cost the retailer should have had to incur. Ed is still working for some kind of resolution from Hepco and Becker on my behalf. I very much appreciate their efforts.

In keeping with full disclosure...here are the results of the test. Keep in mind, only one of the bolts was analyzed...I retained the other bolt, considering the cost of having it analyzed, it's not going to happen on my dime.

This report has brought up a whole new set of questions (following the images)..... ...but at least I have been vindicated in regards to the bolt being "overtightened".

Hopefully these picture links work...If not, you'll need to go to the source to see them.











Questions related to the report

   1.  What is meant by cyclic loading? These were installed, tightened with loc-tite and rechecked a couple times after putting miles on them. Please remember I reached out to MotoMachines about torque specs when I initially installed them. The reply I got back was tight, but not over-tightened.

    2. What is meant by initial loads were relatively high?
   
     3. Could much of the damage/cracking on the analyzed bolt been caused due to possibly being the 2nd bolt to break because of increased loads/stresses?
   
     4. Not knowing which bolt broke first (left or right) and having only analyzed one of the bolts. Could this fretting be caused by this bolt being broken and rattling around in the bore working their way out after seeing various loads due to off-road riding? Remember, I did not discover these when the failure happened. Who knows how long they were subjected to the jarring off road stresses.
   
     5.  I see the same fretting evidence on the other bolt I still have in hand. However, this bolt has a very different breakage pattern. Againcan this fretting be caused after the bolt broke, but before it worked its way out of the bore.
   

     6.  Does Hepco and Becker know how the OEM mounting bolts compare to the kit supplied M10x1,25x110 (rated 8.8} bolts? Weaker, stronger?


Interestingly, someone else who bought these bars contacted me 2 days ago regarding this issue. He stated he was told by Hepco and Becker to use their general info torque specs. Which BTW, were not supplied to me in the kit.

The general info torque specs in their pamphlet say "screw w/nut". There is no "nut"...the kit supplied M10x1,25x110 (rated 8.8) bolts are threaded into the frame at the cylinder head mounting point.

However, here are the relevant values.

Dealer/service manual) cylinder head to frame torque spec - 48 nm.
The "general info " from H and B pamphlet says the M10x1,25x110 (rated 8.8) torque spec - 26nm.

That's a deficit of 22nm. I'm not an engineer....but this seems suspect to me.

In the end, I think this whole saga highlights the glaring need for Hepco and Becker to supply application specific torque specs.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 11:07:29 PM by flyingburrito »
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