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Offline flyingburrito

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Re: Hepco and Becker upper tank protection bars issue. Tiger 900
« Reply #30 on: April 05, 2021, 07:14:06 PM »
*Originally Posted by Djairouks [+]
If a company doing all sorts of protective parts, replies "good and tight" I would be pretty
ticked off, because then do they really know what they do and have a research design team
doing they jobs and not only people designing bars anyhow withtout much testing...

Just for clarification...The retailer was the one who stated "good and tight"...I can't really fault them.     If H and B did not supply specs, what more could the retailer say.         This is solely on H and B.


*Originally Posted by Paulhere [+]
Just guessing the H&B bolts are a longer version of the OEM bolts they replace, wouldn't the same torque apply?

They are not the same OEM style bolts.  The OEM bolts have no markings.  The hardware supplied from H and B are 8.8 metric.   It's unknown what grade the OEM bolts are.

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Online Paulhere

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Re: Hepco and Becker upper tank protection bars issue. Tiger 900
« Reply #31 on: April 05, 2021, 07:27:30 PM »
*Originally Posted by flyingburrito [+]

They are not the same OEM style bolts.  The OEM bolts have no markings.  The hardware supplied from H and B are 8.8 metric.   It's unknown what grade the OEM bolts are.

The oem bolts wouldn't be less than 8.8 & unlikely stronger. oem torque value imho would be fine.
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Offline flyingburrito

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Re: Hepco and Becker upper tank protection bars issue. Tiger 900
« Reply #32 on: April 19, 2021, 10:05:11 PM »
I reached out to the retailer for an update on the Hepco and Becker broken bolts issue (not much of an update)

*****
Sorry for the delayed reply on this.


After looking into analysis options and spending quite a bit of time on this, the ones we have found cost thousands for an official test and that is not something we want to spend. However, after talking to those who do these tests, they have unofficially said the bolt looks like it was overtightened based on the way it broke and how it looks. I understand this is not a fact based response and the facts are what we are both after. We will continue to look into this and conversate with the manufacturer to see what the next step is and if they are willing to cover the cost of the test for us. Unfortunately at this time I do not have a fact based reply for you but hope to in a few weeks time.


*****

The recurring "overtightening" story is not sitting well with me. I did not overtighten these bolts....and again...no torque spec was provided by H and B. I also thought it was stated previously that the bolt would be sent to H and B to be analyzed.... that hasn't happened...and from the above communication, doesn't sound like it will now.

Asking H and B to make this right. If they do, they have a customer for life....if not...well, we'll just see how that goes.
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Offline flyingburrito

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Re: Hepco and Becker upper tank protection bars issue. Tiger 900
« Reply #33 on: May 09, 2021, 06:11:33 PM »
Still awaiting some kind of response that isn't the run-around.

  I created a video to share the current details.

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Offline flyingburrito

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Re: Hepco and Becker upper tank protection bars issue. Tiger 900
« Reply #34 on: May 10, 2021, 12:48:25 AM »
I would have edited my last post...but it seems you can't edit after a certain amount of time.

The "general" torque spec pamphlet was brought up again elsewhere.  Someone was told by H and B to use those general values.     Wow.

 Here are the actual numbers.

Those general torque specs in that pamphlet say "screw w/nut".   There is no "nut"...these  bolts are threaded into the frame at the cylinder head mounting point.     Torque spec for the cylinder head to frame (from my dealer) states 48 nm.        The "general spec" from H and B pamphlet says the M10x1,25x110 (rated 8.8)  torque should be 26nm.      If anyone has used these values,  I suggest you recheck the tightness of your mounting bolts.    I would also go a step further and replace them if you've only had 26nm on them due to improper loading stresses, especially if you're doing any significant off road.    I never received the "general" torque specs pamphlet to begin with, it's worthless for this application anyway.     Just don't end up in my shoes.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2021, 12:52:13 AM by flyingburrito »
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Offline flyingburrito

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Re: Hepco and Becker upper tank protection bars issue. Tiger 900
« Reply #35 on: May 12, 2021, 10:51:08 PM »
Here is a follow up on the Hepco and Becker bars failure issue I've been dealing with. (I'll be sharing this in multiple threads/message boards/venues)     I'm not on Farcebook.  feel free to share this on any social media sites (in it's entirety) 

First things first. Ed Stiley (at MotoMachines) reached out today and we spoke at length. They have been fair throughout this process and they have been grappling with unknowns as well. This is why it's taken some time to get some answers. For the record, my intention was never to cause trouble for Motomachines, my beef has been with Hepco and Becker. Apologies to MM if at times I have been frustrated, it's tough to see $300+ dollars of parts laying on the floor (not to mention the cost of having the broken bolts professionally extracted) Motomachines has footed the bill (not an insignificant cost) to have my bolt analyzed. Hopefully, H and B will reimburse them for this. In my mind, this is not a cost the retailer should have had to incur. Ed is still working for some kind of resolution from Hepco and Becker on my behalf. I very much appreciate their efforts.

In keeping with full disclosure...here are the results of the test. Keep in mind, only one of the bolts was analyzed...I retained the other bolt, considering the cost of having it analyzed, it's not going to happen on my dime.

This report has brought up a whole new set of questions (following the images)..... ...but at least I have been vindicated in regards to the bolt being "overtightened".

Hopefully these picture links work...If not, you'll need to go to the source to see them.











Questions related to the report

   1.  What is meant by cyclic loading? These were installed, tightened with loc-tite and rechecked a couple times after putting miles on them. Please remember I reached out to MotoMachines about torque specs when I initially installed them. The reply I got back was tight, but not over-tightened.

    2. What is meant by initial loads were relatively high?
   
     3. Could much of the damage/cracking on the analyzed bolt been caused due to possibly being the 2nd bolt to break because of increased loads/stresses?
   
     4. Not knowing which bolt broke first (left or right) and having only analyzed one of the bolts. Could this fretting be caused by this bolt being broken and rattling around in the bore working their way out after seeing various loads due to off-road riding? Remember, I did not discover these when the failure happened. Who knows how long they were subjected to the jarring off road stresses.
   
     5.  I see the same fretting evidence on the other bolt I still have in hand. However, this bolt has a very different breakage pattern. Againcan this fretting be caused after the bolt broke, but before it worked its way out of the bore.
   

     6.  Does Hepco and Becker know how the OEM mounting bolts compare to the kit supplied M10x1,25x110 (rated 8.8} bolts? Weaker, stronger?


Interestingly, someone else who bought these bars contacted me 2 days ago regarding this issue. He stated he was told by Hepco and Becker to use their general info torque specs. Which BTW, were not supplied to me in the kit.

The general info torque specs in their pamphlet say "screw w/nut". There is no "nut"...the kit supplied M10x1,25x110 (rated 8.8) bolts are threaded into the frame at the cylinder head mounting point.

However, here are the relevant values.

Dealer/service manual) cylinder head to frame torque spec - 48 nm.
The "general info " from H and B pamphlet says the M10x1,25x110 (rated 8.8) torque spec - 26nm.

That's a deficit of 22nm. I'm not an engineer....but this seems suspect to me.

In the end, I think this whole saga highlights the glaring need for Hepco and Becker to supply application specific torque specs.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2021, 11:07:29 PM by flyingburrito »
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Offline flyingburrito

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Re: Hepco and Becker upper tank protection bars issue. Tiger 900
« Reply #36 on: May 15, 2021, 06:32:55 PM »
Somone with some metallurgical knowledge was kind enough to respond on another message board regarding my questions.  :123:  Thought I'd pass it along here.

I hope all of these comments and posts are providing good information for everyone.  My goal here is to help others avoid what happened to me.

*Originally Posted by AloneInTheHills
My thoughts on your questions:

    What is meant by cyclic loading?   It just means it was vibrating back and forth. Some could be from frame flex and the rest from engine movements.
    What is meant by initial loads were relatively high? They probably just mean the initial clamping force of the torque you applied.
    Could much of the damage/cracking on the analyzed bolt been caused due to possibly being the 2nd bolt to break because of increased loads/stresses? That's the right question- if this was the second failure then fatigue would be expected. The first could have been any manner of defect or issue.
    Not knowing which bolt broke first (left or right) and having only analyzed one of the bolts. Could this fretting be caused by this bolt being broken and rattling around in the bore working their way out after seeing various loads due to off-road riding?   Yes, if they had told you to oil or grease the bolt shank it would reduce fretting. In an unlubed bolt clamping a vibrating engine to a frame it's not surprising to see what I would describe less technically as "rubbing". If the bolt is correct fr the application it shouldn't be a major issue but is a potential fatigue mode.
    I see the same fretting evidence on the other bolt I still  have in hand.    However, this bolt has a very different breakage pattern.     Againcan this fretting be caused after the bolt broke, but before it worked its way out of the bore. Once it broke it wouldn't have the clamp load to rub. It would probably just rattle around.  If there's an engineering school near you email or call their materials or mechanical engineering department. You may be able to get a prof or grad student to look at it. They like real world failures because it makes them tick.
    Does Hepco and Becker know how the OEM mounting bolts compare to the kit supplied  M10x1,25x110 (rated 8.8}  bolts?     Weaker, stronger? OEM bolts are probably stamped. That said H&B should be designing to the stress loads of a drop/crash versus just clamping the engine between the frame. They should also know the engine is a stressed member in these bikes (i.e. not a cradle frame).


 
As far a torque go, basically the torque is based on the bolt size and grade with manufacturers usually varying it a bit for materials, loading, and to avoid over torque if your wrench is a bit off spec. The reason for this is torque is to essentially place a tension into a bolt of a known diameter so you need enough torque to stretch it without getting to yield and fail.  For an M10 8.8 this would be around 55NM and for an M10 10.9 it would be a bit over 70NM. If the stock torque is 48NM it suggests an 8.8 grade bolt, but there are other considerations like if you're bolting into aluminum threads, etc.
At 26NM I'd expect an M10 to vibrate loose unless a locking type nut is used because the bolt isn't in enough tension to clamp the threads in place.

Also it sounds like on the 900 these are threading into the frame or engine case? On the 800 if I recall there's a through hole in the engine and the bolt goes into a nut on the backside. If it's going directly into a threaded engine mount that's a bit different loading and alignment-wise.  I don't know enough to make a recommendation, but an 8.8 is similar to a U.S. grade 5. If it were me I'd rather use a 10.9, but the flipside is you'd rather break a bolt and extract it than break an engine mount
.

To add...   Motomachines (retailer) is now claiming that  they and Hepco and Becker have always recommended factory torque specs.  This is simply not true in my case.

1.)  When I called about missing torque specs in the actual installation instructions, MotoMachines instructed me "tight by not overtightened"
2.)  I never received the Hepco and Becker "General Info" pamphlet which apparently states (use factory torque specs) somewhere before/after stating to use 26nm (where factory is 48nm).   
3.) Why the hell don't they just print "use factory torque specs" on the actual installation instructions to begin with!     

This is a cop-out for Hepco not doing due diligence in providing good/proper installation information.

Motomachines has offered me to return the bars for a full refund.   While that is a nice gesture...what about the significant cost to have broken bolts extracted from the frame?    I have never asked Motomachines to cover any losses related to this issue.  I have always laid blame on Hepco and Becker for not providing proper torque specs in the actual installation instructions.     They told me they were working with Hepco and Becker to make this right.    Now I'm told they are "one in the same" as a representative in the US to sell their products.   

Disappointingly....the dialogue from Motomachines keeps changing....
« Last Edit: May 15, 2021, 06:57:33 PM by flyingburrito »
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Offline flyingburrito

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Re: Hepco and Becker upper tank protection bars issue. Tiger 900
« Reply #37 on: May 18, 2021, 07:59:51 PM »
Here is the final outcome folks....and it isn't pretty     Hepco and Becker (and Motomachines) WILL NOT stand behind their failure to provide proper torque specs in their installation instructions (Hepco) and then providing bad installation guidance (Motomachines)     Here is all of the back and forth.


******

QUOTE="MotoMachines,

My name is Ed Stiley and I own Moto Machines along with my dad Alan. I was the one that spoke to (flyingburrito brother) at length. He originally posted about having bought a set of tank guards for his Tiger 900, installed them and then see the bolts break that hold them onto the bike. Up until now the story has been one sided as only told by Peter. I dont believe this is necessarily fair so Im posting here to tell the other side of the story from my perspective based on the same full disclosure Peter has done. I am not here to argue or cause any ill will, just simply posting my take on what happened.

Moto Machines has been in business for over 10 years and this is the first time we have seen a bolt break like this. We have sold thousands of Hepco & Becker guards and have never a bolt break like this; because of this we decided to have the bolt analyzed. Fun fact, this is called metallurgical engineering and based on the name alone you can guess its not cheap.

There are a few things I would like to clear up best told by bullet points

    Hepco & Becker use a spacer on the guard because that allows them to have two flat surfaces connect to each other. You will notice in some other install videos where the tank guard attaches to at the engine, the same place the bolt broke, there is a machined recess. H&B use a spacer here to make sure the contact points are perfectly flat. This is where the tank guard bolts. Simply bolting a piece of metal over the recess is not good engineering practice.
    Peter called up saying that we decreased the price of the tank guard he bought because a different version since became available. The price has never changed, there are different costs for the different color options of the guards.
    It did take quite a while for us to have the bolt analyzed from the beginning when Peter contacted us. Im sorry for the length of time it took. Something like this was a new experience for us and Hepco & Becker. We went back and forth with the manufacturer on what the best option was and had to spend quite a bit of time finding somebody who does metallurgical analysis that didnt cost an arm and a leg, just your less dominate hand.
    There is not a new version of the tank guard. There is a different version called the solid version. I say this because some people think Hepco & Becker redesigned the tank guard. This is false but I do understand how some would think a different version is a revision but in this case its just another option (this also shows the popularity of the bike and tank guards to not only have two options but multiple colors for those options). The solid version is my personal claim to fame in this world. Hepco & Becker were one of the first in Germany to buy a Tiger 900 and Moto Machines one of the first in the US. I personally have been very active on the Tiger 900 facebook group and based on the feedback to the original Tiger 900 tank guards, I asked Hepco to make a new version from what I and others thought could be an improvement. I literally used Microsoft soft paint to draw where I wanted the additional attachment points and Hepco & Becker to their credit made it happen.

We received the analysis back and it showed the bolts broke due to fatigue, with fretting suggesting the bolt was loose. In response to the findings, Peter has asked a few technical questions. Not going out on a limb here but I am not an engineer, I dont know how to answer those questions correctly. This is the reason we paid an expert a lot of money to run the analysis they did. Im sorry I cant provide a more in depth response to those specific questions and want to focus on providing an overall response which is now longer than I imagined it would be.

Peter said he did not want to cause trouble any trouble and I appreciate that, however, posting this on the internet publicly has shown on this thread where others are now hesitant to purchase the tank guard and to the point where we get a call every week asking about the bolts; I ask to take those calls now because I get to talk with others who purchased the same bike; a small joy break in the daily routine. I am only responding with full disclosure as Peter has said. I asked Peter what he torqued the bolts to and he said he did not torque them. There is a general service info packet from Hepco & Becker that mentions torque values. The 26nm Peter mentions is for steel screws in steel threads with nut. If you read the paragraph above that spec it says The appropriate torques prescribed by the motorcycle manufacturer are to be used. If there are no specifications of the manufacturer, the following values apply. Peter has said this saga highlights the need for Hepco & Becker to provide specific torque settings in the instructions. This is something we are looking into with Hepco & Becker but there are challenges associated with this and for now we continue to recommend referring to the bike manufacturers data as the authoritative source.

I fully understand the situation and its unfortunate for all involved. Peter installed a product he thought would protect his bike only to see it not workout as he intended. To add to the frustration, he took the guards off the bike and dumped it a week later. We and Hepco & Becker have had to respond to claims against bolts that were said to be unreliable when this was not the case. After speaking to Peter yesterday he has asked that I send new bolts and cover the cost he paid to have the broken bolts removed. Having spent quite a bit on the analysis that ended up vindicating both design and materials its not something I want to foot the bill on. Understanding the situation on what happened Im not just going to say tough luck and walk away. I want to do something although it may not be what Peter wants. I am open to sending a set of replacement bolts or taking the guard back for a full refund. Peter, please let me know what you want to do when you get the chance. Again, I am sorry that you experienced this and hope you can appreciate the efforts we have taken and are now taking.

******

QUOTE="FLYINGBURRITOBROTHER,

Well thanks for responding Ed....however, I'm a bit shocked by some of your comments after our conversation. I want to clear up a few points.

1. You are correct that I did not torque the aftermarket H and B bolts, I've never stated otherwise. Once again...when I called Motomachines about the lack of torque specs in the H and B install instructions, I was told by Motomachines "tight...but not overtightened".
2. Regarding bolt "looseness and fretting", see the expert responses on my questions here https://advrider.com/f/threads/2020-tiger-900.1385044/page-139#post-42331504
3. As mentioned numerous times in our call and in these threads, I did not receive the Hepco and Becker General Info pamphlet in my kit....so I never saw the "use appropriate manufacturing torque specs" paragraph.  Why was I not told to use factory specs as you mention is in the pamphlet I never received when I contacted MM about the official installation instructions missing torque specs?
4. "Posting this on the internet" is what message boards are for....this has been done since the beginning of the internet forums. It's a way to let others know of issues with products.
5. I MOST CERTAINLY DID NOT ask you (Motomachines) to send me new bolts and cover the cost of the broken bolt extraction. You asked me what I wanted from Hepco and Becker....that's who I expected to receive new bolts from and reimburse me for the broken bolt extraction. I've been pretty clear on this....I don't believe you, the retailer, should be on the hook for any of this. I'm not asking you to eat any costs/returns/etc. I'm asking Hepco and Becker to take care of this. You led me to believe you were going to contact them and see if they would accept my request, that you would have a response by the end of the week....did this even happen?

********


QUOTE="MotoMachines,

This will be my last post on the main thread.

Peter, I only want to help. I am sure those who read my lengthy post dont want to read another one, I certainly dont want to write one. This in my opinion would be energy best spent riding our bikes.

I am not sure why you emphasized my words about posting on the internet. You said you were posting this publicly and that I should respond to your post which I am doing. The red wording and caps isnt necessary. I simply asked what would be a good resolution to move forward and you asked to have new bolts along with reimbursement for the bolt removal. Again, having just paid for the expensive metallurgical analysis for your bolt, this is not a bill I want to pay. I understand you want Hepco & Becker to pay/answer you directly and that you have good intentions to leave Moto Machines out of this; but we sold you the guard and ran the analysis for you. Whether its them or us replying is one in the same. Moto Machines is the US representative for Hepco & Becker. Our companies have a strong relationship, both family businesses. They trust us to respond on their behalf. You asked for an end of the week response and I provided it in my last post.

Again, I understand the unfortunate situation we are both a part of in its entirety. Im not leaving you to dry here despite the findings of the bolt analysis; not asking you to pay for that report either. Instead I am offering you replacement bolts or a full refund.

******

QUOTE="FLYINGBURRITOBROTHER,"


Ed....the red text was to highlight an extremely incorrect statement you made regarding our phone call.    I never asked you Motomachines to pay for anything regarding this situation.

I appreciate your offer of returning the bars for a refund.    However, I'm still out significant labor costs for broken bolt removal due to poor install instructions and recommendations.     Per our call, you were going to go to Hepco and Becker regarding these costs...but now you are saying you are  "one in the same" with them.    The dialogue keeps changing!

You keep posting on other venues that  H and B recommends factory torque specs in their "general info" pamphlet.... and how Motomachines has always recommended factory torque specs.    All while leaving out the fact that I never received that pamphlet....and leaving out the fact that when I called Motomachines, that is NOT what you recommended to me.     If H and B recommends factory torque specs....why are they not in the actual install instructions?      I'm not on Farcebook, I can only imagine how the story is being told over there where I am unable to respond.


******

QUOTE="MotoMachines,

 Peter, I was really hoping that was my last post on this thread. I am only replying because I have to tell my side of the story. There is another thread now devoted to this topic; where we are having the same exact conversation. Out of respect to this awesome mega Tiger 900 thread I will post again here in efforts of one last time and hope we can resolve this or continue in that thread.

I dont want to argue at all yet alone semantics. Red and Caps or not I would have still heard you out as I have been doing from the start. Yes, you asked Hepco & Becker to pay for your damaged bolt extraction; sorry for not getting this 100% correct but I dont believe it extremely incorrect. In this situation, asking them to pay or Moto Machines is one in the same as mentioned.  I never said I would have to contact H&B before I replied. Again, I said I would discuss this and provide a response by the end of the week which I did. I also said I would follow up with H&B about the bolt analysis costs for which we are responsible for to see if they can help with the cost.

I understand you are out significant labor costs of $240; I am out quite a bit more for the bolt analysis.

For others following, other venues is Peters Youtube video. Again, not here to go tit for tat. Only here to tell my side of the story and help resolve this. There is no facebook post that I know of about this.

Please understand I am only trying to help and move forward so we can both spend more time on the bike (thats an awesome view by the way).

******




QUOTE="FLYINGBURRITOBROTHER,

Okay Ed.  I'm  trying to keep this civil....but you keep changing the story from what we discussed by phone.

First off.   In our phone call, you are the one who told me that you were following the comments somewhere on Facebook....

Second....  You keep claiming you are out the money for the bolt analysis....but you told me our phone call that Hepco and Becker was going to reimburse you. 

Thrid...  You absolutely did say to me by phone you would contact H an B and should have an answer by the end of the week.

This is why I like to communicate thru emails and message boards....the written dialogue is proof of what has been said.

Yes, I have a video on Youtube (which I announced somewhere on this board).  In just about 3 weeks, it's had nearly 1K views.   There is also another message board where I've posted this whole story (in it's own thread).  It's had nearly 4K views.

If I return these bars to you...you are out nothing.      What are the production costs per unit on these bars?     Everyone  knows the margins on Adventure gear/accessories is huge.  We see this in the cheap China knock offs of products sold on eBay.  The manufacturer making an item for someone like H and B knocks em off and sells them at a 1/3 of what the original goes for...all that's missing is the logo.  You can turn around and sell my returned bar kit as a return for reduced price and you still make money.    I'm still out $240.00 (yeah....that's sunshine tax California labor rates of $120.00 per hour)

So over $240 to a major company like Hepco and Becker.... they'd rather be seen as a company that is unwilling to stand behind their product due to their lack of proper documentation?     Sure....people will continue to purchase Hepco and Becker products.....but how many will see this decide not to?      How much is $240 worth in the big picture?

******

   

QUOTE="MotoMachines,   

Peter, we can keep this civil no problem. I don't see why that comment was necessary.

    As already mentioned, I really don't want to go tit for tat with you as this is time we could be out riding. I do feel like I have to reply because of the comments you are making. I am not changing the story. I never said I was following comments on facebook. I said Hepco would work with me on the cost, not cover it. Again, I said I would have an answer by the end of the week to which I did. I did not say I was going to contact H&B before replying. I am not here to argue with you or cause ill will; I am here to work with you and tell my story. It looks like we both have had some miscommunication errors from that phone call. I'm hoping we can look past these and work together.

    If you return these bars I am out the cost of shipping to CA and back. I also have to sell them used so that would be half the retail price if somebody wants to buy a set of used guards and the time it takes to list them. So I am out quite a bit, it's a lot more than nothing.

    Your claim that other manufactures make these tank guards for H&B is false. These are made in house at Hepco & Becker.

    We stood behind the product by ordering the bolt analysis for you. The findings were that the installation was due to a lack of tightening and found out that you did not torque them. I understand you did not torque the bolts because the torque settings were not provided. At the end of the day your bike did not suffer any long lasting damage and you are still able to go out and ride it. On the phone with me you said that sometimes the little guy has to make a sting; you have made your sting to large and small. Both Hepco & Becker and my business have felt it. Your point has been made clear. I commented this on the first reply, we are going to work with Hepco & Becker moving forward to see if torque values can be provided in every instruction.

    I am sorry but we are not able to reimburse a customer due to incorrect installation. We have already gone out of our way to run a bolt analysis and are covering that much larger bill. Again, it is an unfortunate situation for both of us. I am still willing to send a set of replacement bolts or provide a full refund if either of those options work for you. In efforts to not go back and forth here I am hoping this will be my last post. Please give me a call when you get the chance so we can can talk through either option. I had a long conversation with you before and wouldn't mind having another one. I understand your side of things and want to work with you.
 
*****

Continued in next post.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2021, 08:03:35 PM by flyingburrito »
2020 Tiger 900 Rally Pro
Ride along with me on beautiful San Diego, California trails... @ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCS6zojgZ5rzWpKNf1_MPf9Q/videos

Offline flyingburrito

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Re: Hepco and Becker upper tank protection bars issue. Tiger 900
« Reply #38 on: May 18, 2021, 08:02:06 PM »
Continued from previous post

QUOTE="FLYINGBURRITOBROTHER,

You can dispense with the Mr. I want to work with you act Ed. Its obvious what you are doing. .and thanks for the offer to talk over the phonebut Ill pass on anymore verbal conversations. What say we stick to the written word from here on out to avoid so-called misunderstandings. You fooled me once in a phone callit WILL NOT happen again. You continue to twist the words from our phone call and you have posted flat out false statements here/elsewhere. Here is my favoritepreviously seen posted on my Youtube page. ED: Motomachines has always recommended factory torque values That is a FLAT OUT LIE in my case.

ED: We stood behind the product by ordering the bolt analysis for you. Its pretty clear based on our phone conversation that the only reason you finally broke down to have the bolt analyzed was because Hepco & Becker/Motomachines are taking heat on these crash bars. What great customer service. order a report to support your early and continued accusations that I overtightened the bolts. But surprise!!! The report states the bolt may have been under tightenedthe spin begins again to lay blame on the customer when it was really on Motomachines/Hepco complete failure to provide proper installation instructions. BTW That analysis is something you said would be done way back in February. https://advrider.com/f/threads/2020-tiger-900.1385044/page-107#post-41881672 Im guessing you thought this would all just fade away. You stated here: https://advrider.com/f/threads/2020-tiger-900.1385044/page-108#post-41885150 Once we get your bolt we will ship it over to Germanythat NEVER happened. Months later, after hearing nothing but crickets, I reached out to Motomachines and was told that you wouldnt be doing bolt analysis because the cost was not something we want to spend. But then you finally spent upwards of $1000 dollars (according to you) instead of taking care of the customer over Motomachines/Hepcos complete failure? Brilliant. Once againthese bars were installed based on what your company told me to dowhich did not provide ANY torque numbers. I did not torque the bars because I was not instructed to. My only mistake here was trusting your companies input.

ED: I never said I was following comments on facebook - Absolutely false. it was you who told me about fielding all the phone calls and concern from Facebook regarding this.

ED: I am sorry but we are not able to reimburse a customer due to incorrect installation What a total BS response Once again, the incorrect installation is due to your companies instructions tight but not over-tightened .and the lack of proper torque specs from Hepco and Becker to begin with. Its pretty clear around here based on my posting history that I am all about proper torque specs. Save the BS about the General Info pamphlet that I never received. You also stated I agree 100% with you that the instructions would only benefit from having the proper torque settings provided here: https://advrider.com/f/threads/2020-tiger-900.1385044/page-108#post-41885150 So please. go ahead and keep insinuating that this was all my fault.it will continue to backfire on you.

ED: At the end of the day your bike did not suffer any long lasting damage and you are still able to go out and ride it. Also a falsehood. A short time after removing the bars due to failed bolts, a drop on a trail damaged my fuel tank. However, much more concerning to mewho knows what long term damage was done to my frame and engine mounts due to not having proper front engine support for who knows how long after the bolts failed. What kind of issues might I see down the road because of your failure to provide proper install instructions.

Take a look around here (ADVRIDER).you dont see anyone talking about installing Hepco crash bars.its all about T-Rex and Outback Motortrek. Perception out there is not favorable to Hepco & Becker. Then you create an improved pair of crash bars along with Hepco and call them Solid.which indicates to the consumer that the previous ones were not solid. Genius. By your own admission: ED: The solid name is just marketing. Wow. and even after my issue, you release these new bars with NO torque specs in the actual install instructions. (Queue up thebut the General Info Pamphlet has torque specs response.) You guys should really take notes on how to properly give installation instructions from Outback Motortrek. Check out their installation video they put on Youtube..complete with torque specs. Outback Motortrek put on a clinic....

Youve offered to have me return these bars to you for a full refund.how big of you. You knew full well I was not going to accept that offer before you posted it. You think it makes Motomachines look like the good guys.look everybody.were offering to take the bars back for a full refund! Trouble is.Im still out $240.00 and a damaged motorcycle. Furthermore, I have absolutely ZERO FAITH in your word based on your behavior since our call. I wouldnt be at all surprised if I sent these back and got completely stiffed on the refund. You really want to make this right. Hepco needs to refund me for the costs to have the broken bolts professionally extracted($240.00) .but I know that is not going to happen.it never was.

Finally, I told you in our phone call that I did not want to cause trouble for your company.that I would like to continue to do business with you...that I did not want to burn a bridge. I also said I didnt think Motomachines should have to incur costs for any of this, that costs/etc should all be on Hepco. After that call, I publicly posted this in every one of these threads on this topic here and elsewhere to show where I stood with Motomachines. ...and I honestly meant it. That was when I thought you were actually working with me and before you started posting false and twisted information. What did I get for trying to be cool to you and your companykicked in the teeth. All youve done after that conversation is attempt to burn me.all under the guise of the Mr Nice Guy act. Nowas you can probably tellI am just pissed off. Motomachines and Hepco will never see another dime from me.

You have stated Both Hepco & Becker and my business have felt it in regards to the effects this has brought on both companies. Both your companies brought this on yourselves.

The backlash is not going to go away.

Hope it was worth the $240.00

******

Make your own call if you want to do business with these companies.   

Ride safe out there adventurers.

2020 Tiger 900 Rally Pro
Ride along with me on beautiful San Diego, California trails... @ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCS6zojgZ5rzWpKNf1_MPf9Q/videos

Offline jaredjensen

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Re: Hepco and Becker upper tank protection bars issue. Tiger 900
« Reply #39 on: May 21, 2021, 10:43:52 PM »
I'm not really a fan of the scorched earth blamestorming strategy, and moto machines seems to have made a pretty solid effort to be accommodating, regardless of the he-said-she-said stuff.  But the fact remains that no one has provided a torque spec, other than factory spec of 48 Nm should work.  And it probably would work, but this experience has motivated me to get the Outback skidplate/guard combo that I was originally looking at anyway, so if someone wants a set of H&B engine/tank guards that are like new at a great price, PM me!

 


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