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Online Stevie.P

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Re: New ECU Advice
« Reply #200 on: November 23, 2021, 10:29:12 PM »
*Originally Posted by chuckxc [+]
.
I have heard that a qualified locksmith has the electronics to interrogate and read the code within an electronic key like these. But I don't know for sure.

I know it is possible .... as in .... a few years back, maybe 7, I bought my daughter a little 2006 VW Polo which unfortunately only had 1 key with it. The salesman gave me a number of a mobile locksmith and told me when done he'd refund the cost. The guy turned up in a small Ford Escort type van but clearly kitted out for the task. He plugged a box of tricks into the cars OBD socket, presumably interrogating the ECU, and after a few minutes it returned a number. He wrote this number down then went back to the van. Mounted on the wall was another electronic box, he selected a suitable chip for a VW key and dropped it into the box and entered the previous number. A few seconds later he inserted the chip into the corner of a new blank key. Then using the key I had moved to his cutting machine and copied the actual key then tested it on the car. The cost for a key was 45, so I asked for 2 to be made so he charged me 80 but gave me a 45 receipt for 1 for the garage that I claimed back.

He was very professional and probably a similar age to me but explained that his profession would just see his working time out as the latest cars had already started using technology that would be beyond 3rd party services such that it would only be possible to pay the official dealers to obtain spare keys at serious cost.

I don't know about similar mobile services in MegaChops area, obviously he was vehicle orientated and the usual High Street key cutting shops are more domestic orientated and probably unlikely to have those electronics for reading the ECU, though I imagine they can normally copy a known good key chip as I've seen that advertised .... this ECU/VIN interrogation possibly being the obstacle for MegaChops? :027:
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Offline awjdthumper

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Re: New ECU Advice
« Reply #201 on: November 23, 2021, 11:02:33 PM »
The immobilisers fitted to vehicles are there to prevent someone without the proper key from starting it. However, if you have a key then it should be relatively easy to determine the code simply by monitoring the message on the Can-Bus sent by the immobiliser to the ECU containing the code read from the key. Once you have the code you can then programme a replacement key.

Unfortunately, the problem here is that there is only 1 key and the chip appears not to be working and hence the immobiliser cannot read the code and then send it to the ECU. If that is the case, the only place the code is stored is within the ECU and the big question is whether it is possible to extract it in some way. I believe the starting point would have to be a Triumph dealer.
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Offline D6864

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Re: New ECU Advice
« Reply #202 on: November 24, 2021, 02:27:44 PM »
Here's a post confirming that the keys are registered with the immobiliser, and the immobiliser is paired with the ECU (on a Trophy which uses the same system):
https://www.triumph-trophy.com/index.php/topic,1747.msg23241.html#msg23241

and a video showing new key registration to the immobiliser:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cmSwJYPZSA

Pages 10.79 and 10.90 of the service manual cover the relevant ECU and immobiliser DTCs.

Offline awjdthumper

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Re: New ECU Advice
« Reply #203 on: November 24, 2021, 03:38:19 PM »
I am assuming the tests carried out were with your immobilser because you didn't mention trying the one from MegaChops bike.

If the code is stored in the immobiliser then all the tests done with MegaChops key (Tests 1 & 2) should have resulted in a flashing MIL and the one done with your key (Test 2) should have been fine. However, you got the opposite results. Test 2 resulted in a flashing MIL which I interpret as due to the key code being stored within the ECU (MegaChops) and not matching your key. I interpret the null results in Test 1 & 3 as due to MegaChops key being duff and simply not being detected by the immobiliser.

It would be nice if teh key code was stored in the immobiliser because it would then be easier to sort the problem. However, your test data seems to back up teh view that the key code is stored in the ECU :084:
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Offline MegaChops

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Re: New ECU Advice
« Reply #204 on: November 24, 2021, 10:19:48 PM »
Agree, it sounds like my new key has failed. Luckily I have my old ignition set, with 2 keys, I'll ring the dealer tomorrow to get a cost to pair it up. Thanks for this lads

Just another thought (I might just be being stupid), could it be the key code reader thing on the new igntion set thats faulty and not the key? I'm just thinking, if I connect ,y old igntion set, move the ring thing (which I assume is the key code reader) from the ignition set and move it as far away from the igntion as I can (with the new key sticky taped on to it), cover the old key in foil and then try it. Would this eliminate the key code reader.

I'll need to wait till I get it back next week, but I'm just wanting to cover all angles before I send to the dealer to avoid any excessive costs.

Also @T800XC, will this lead work to get the CANBUS output so I can see if the key is detected (like you mentioned)

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/304229342826?hash=item46d57b5e6a:g:vR4AAOSwabhhlbbg

Thanks


« Last Edit: November 24, 2021, 10:26:36 PM by MegaChops »

Offline awjdthumper

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Re: New ECU Advice
« Reply #205 on: November 24, 2021, 10:32:10 PM »
If you screen the new key fob with foil and put your old key fob close to it when you switch on the ignition, it should read the code from the old key and generate a flashing MIL and DTC.  If not, the pickup coil in the ignition set has failed, probably. When I get back from London tomorrow, I'll try the test with my pair of keys to check this approach works.
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Offline awjdthumper

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Re: New ECU Advice
« Reply #206 on: November 25, 2021, 04:56:05 AM »
If its not too late it would be very helpful if D6864 could do a few extra tests with his bike back in its original state.

Test 1: with his key fob screened with aluminium foil, to switch on his ignition to check the engine will not start.

Test 2: same again but with his spare key fob held close to screened fob to check the bike now starts.

Test 3: same again but with MegaChops key held close to screened key to see what happens. If this throws up a flashing MIL and DTC it will mean MegaChops key is working otherwise it will mean it is duff.

If the key is working then do the tests you intended with your original key to see if the problem lies with the ignition pick up coil.
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Online T800XC

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Re: New ECU Advice
« Reply #207 on: November 25, 2021, 06:29:25 AM »
*Originally Posted by MegaChops [+]
Also @T800XC, will this lead work to get the CANBUS output so I can see if the key is detected (like you mentioned)

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/304229342826?hash=item46d57b5e6a:g:vR4AAOSwabhhlbbg

It should, but if you read the TigerTool threads you'll see there are some compatibility issues with these leads.

For the commands to monitor the CAN-bus I'd hope that lead would be ok.

Apologies for not posting the CAN-bus info yet. We've had to get some urgent work sorted on our house so I've not been at my PC all week. I should be in a position to post the info either this evening or tomorrow.
  
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Offline D6864

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Re: New ECU Advice
« Reply #208 on: November 25, 2021, 09:15:23 AM »
*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
If its not too late it would be very helpful if D6864 could do a few extra tests with his bike back in its original state.

Test 1: with his key fob screened with aluminium foil, to switch on his ignition to check the engine will not start.

Test 2: same again but with his spare key fob held close to screened fob to check the bike now starts.

Test 3: same again but with MegaChops key held close to screened key to see what happens. If this throws up a flashing MIL and DTC it will mean MegaChops key is working otherwise it will mean it is duff.

If the key is working then do the tests you intended with your original key to see if the problem lies with the ignition pick up coil.

This is actually how I've performed the tests so far as I haven't had time to remove the tank to get to the ignition switch connector!

Offline D6864

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Re: New ECU Advice
« Reply #209 on: November 25, 2021, 10:06:55 AM »
*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
I am assuming the tests carried out were with your immobilser because you didn't mention trying the one from MegaChops bike.
Yes, I only have my immobiliser module.

*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
If the code is stored in the immobiliser then all the tests done with MegaChops key (Tests 1 & 2) should have resulted in a flashing MIL and the one done with your key (Test 2) should have been fine.
I'm sure keys are paired to the immobiliser. In Tests 1 and 3, MegaChops' key isn't paired to my immobiliser so it puts the alarm light on and doesn't unlock the ECU; the ECU does not flash the MIL or raise a DTC in this case.

*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
However, you got the opposite results. Test 2 resulted in a flashing MIL which I interpret as due to the key code being stored within the ECU (MegaChops) and not matching your key. I interpret the null results in Test 1 & 3 as due to MegaChops key being duff and simply not being detected by the immobiliser.
In this case, my immobiliser verifies my key and unlocks the ECU; only then does the ECU check its pairing with the immobiliser, this fails so it flashes the MIL and raises a DTC.

*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
It would be nice if teh key code was stored in the immobiliser because it would then be easier to sort the problem. However, your test data seems to back up teh view that the key code is stored in the ECU :084:
Either of us could be right, but I think my explanation fits better with the evidence from the service manual and online. The next step should be to get a dealer to do the key-immobiliser and immobiliser-ECU pairings. Then I would put money on the bike running again.

 


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