Author [NL] [FR] [ES] [DE] [SE] [IT] Starter Motor Information (and my 2015 XRt starter renewal cause for seeking it)  (Read 4252 times)

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  • Offline Londonglide   gb

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    Re: Starter Motor Information (and my 2015 XRt starter renewal cause for seeking
    Reply #30 on: Feb 09, 2022, 04.40 pm
    Feb 09, 2022, 04.40 pm
    I have the same Denso brushes, unused , and they are all 7.16 mm from back to centre line of brush curve, and 7.26 from rear to edge ( by curve, I mean the bit that runs against the commutator)

  • Offline chuckxc   au

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    Re: Starter Motor Information (and my 2015 XRt starter renewal cause for seeking
    Reply #31 on: Feb 09, 2022, 08.27 pm
    Feb 09, 2022, 08.27 pm
    *Originally Posted by Londonglide [+]
    I have the same Denso brushes, unused , and they are all 7.16 mm from back to centre line of brush curve, and 7.26 from rear to edge ( by curve, I mean the bit that runs against the commutator)

    Mine are the same length, 7.16mm, for the commutator contact length.
    The other sides (one where the braid is attached),  8.6 mm.
     
    From memory, I recall the fully worn remaining length was about 3mm.
    Laterally unstable unless moving.

    My third Triple - 1976 Laverda 3CL Jota
    My 4cyl grunt - 2005 Honda CB1300F

  • Online Stevie.P   gb

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    Re: Starter Motor Information (and my 2015 XRt starter renewal cause for seeking
    Reply #32 on: Feb 10, 2022, 11.29 am
    Feb 10, 2022, 11.29 am
    *Originally Posted by Stevie.P [+]
    I decided to take it apart out of interest and as expected found it dirty with carbon and the brushes worn to an average length of around 6.5mm, which I wouldn't say was excessively worn, though I have no idea of the length of a new set of brushes to compare.

    *Originally Posted by Londonglide [+]
    I have the same Denso brushes, unused , and they are all 7.16 mm from back to centre line of brush curve, and 7.26 from rear to edge ( by curve, I mean the bit that runs against the commutator)

    *Originally Posted by chuckxc [+]
    Mine are the same length, 7.16mm, for the commutator contact length.
    The other sides (one where the braid is attached),  8.6 mm.

    Thanks Guys. As I originally said I didn't think the brushes were excessively worn. I'm personally inclined to think that, carbon dust aside, the brushes are probably not the primary cause of the hot starting issue. I don't believe, as chuckxc indicated, that the carbon dust is involved, if you look at the picture of my removed commutator there isn't really any dust on there on the surface that runs inside the magnets and we're talking a bit more than resistance here, the starter is effectively temporarily seized stationary. To me it seems like for some reason some motors, maybe due to being on the wrong combination of manufacturing tolerances between parts such as the comm and magnet clearance, which with age/use, heat expansion is then seriously closing that clearance and intruding on the starters ability to rotate freely. There is no movement at all when this happens and the draw of power on pressing the starter button strangely mimics a totally flat battery scenario, no relay clicking or similar. Presumably the current is flowing through the comm windings without creating a short to earth as the 30A fuse doesn't blow. I can't see how heat could cause any effect on the rest of the starter circuit, the relay isn't in a hot zone and after a cooling period the starter function (and presumably culprit component contraction) resumes as normal. :034:

    I guess I'll just have to see how the new starter and idler gearing fair long term and wait and also see if this fault (unfortunately) starts to occur in the future with those with long term 'Gen 3' bikes already fitted with these latest parts. :027:

    At a later date I'll clean my old motor and do a bit of investigation, measuring, etc. and see if I can see any potential things or signs, rub or scuff marks, etc. :084:

    Also owned my 1979 Bonnie T140E from new!
    We don't stop playing because we grow old .. WE GROW OLD BECAUSE WE STOP PLAYING!!!


  • Offline Londonglide   gb

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    Re: Starter Motor Information (and my 2015 XRt starter renewal cause for seeking
    Reply #33 on: Feb 10, 2022, 11.57 am
    Feb 10, 2022, 11.57 am
    Another thing I used to see when working in Industry, was brush springs would lose their tension with heat and cooling cycles, meaning if they were not pushed against the commutator, they wouldn't make a good connection, causing problems.
    Just a thought.

  • Online Stevie.P   gb

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    Re: Starter Motor Information (and my 2015 XRt starter renewal cause for seeking
    Reply #34 on: Feb 10, 2022, 12.28 pm
    Feb 10, 2022, 12.28 pm
    If my brushes were down to maybe 3 or 4mm and the springs extending a bit, maybe, but at 6.5mm is barely relaxing them, barely over 0.5mm of brush wear extension. :027:

    *Originally Posted by Stevie.P [+]
    ... see if I can see any potential things or signs, rub or scuff marks, etc. :084:

    I realise it is unlikely there would be marks as the motor never spins in a binding state to create any scuffs or marks. It is either free and working or totally stationary. To produce scuffs would have needed me to have been trying to start just at the exact point where the heat reduction was just releasing the binding. That said, as I stated about my last incident, when the motor did start after my 20-30min cooling period, it did it but struggled, it didn't sound fast and clean. :084:
    Also owned my 1979 Bonnie T140E from new!
    We don't stop playing because we grow old .. WE GROW OLD BECAUSE WE STOP PLAYING!!!


  • Offline chuckxc   au

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    Re: Starter Motor Information (and my 2015 XRt starter renewal cause for seeking
    Reply #35 on: Feb 10, 2022, 09.46 pm
    Feb 10, 2022, 09.46 pm
    Something I forgot to mention, I found on my 2012 XC there was some  black paint from manufacture on the starter motor mounting hole where it attached to the engine.
    The starter motor depends on the engine and frame for the return (battery negative) circuit path. This needs to be as low an electrical  resistance as possible to deliver the necessary cranking current. The residual paint certainly didn't help.
    After cleaning that surface to bare metal, I went the extra precaution and added an additional low-resistance battery cable between the starter motor casing and directly to the battery negative. (Overkill maybe but that doesn't matter.)

    [Re: carbon dust, it can also builds up between the commutator finger contacts to degrade electrical performance. ]

    Last Edit: Feb 10, 2022, 09.50 pm by chuckxc
    Laterally unstable unless moving.

    My third Triple - 1976 Laverda 3CL Jota
    My 4cyl grunt - 2005 Honda CB1300F

  • Offline di_andrei

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    Re: Starter Motor Information (and my 2015 XRt starter renewal cause for seeking
    Reply #36 on: Jun 17, 2022, 09.32 am
    Jun 17, 2022, 09.32 am
    I have just had T1313333 installed on a 2011 800xc - to address the not starting while hot issue that started after ~103,000km. Expensive but I'm pretty lazy and incompetent mechanically - I couldn't get the Denso parts where I lived but the dealer had a T1313333 in stock and was able to install it same day. Sorry I can't contribute much to this otherwise excellent thread, but hoping this is a reliable long term solution.

  • Offline san

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    Offline san

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    Re: Starter Motor Information (and my 2015 XRt starter renewal cause for seeking
    Reply #37 on: Jun 28, 2022, 01.36 pm
    Jun 28, 2022, 01.36 pm
    Hi everybody. Has anyone already decided to order a starter on aliexpress? We have one guy who put it on a 2014 Tiger 800 XC. And at the same time replaced the old battery with a new one. He says he has no problems with the starter right now. The engine starts clearly in both heat and cold. Only on the starter with Aliexpress, you need to remove the paint from the housing where it comes into contact with the engine, for a good negative contact. I also ordered one for myself, but haven't installed it yet. My native 131112, after the collector has been machined on the lathe and cleaned, still gets stuck when heated at startup. Not always, but sometimes it happens. Most likely, I will install a Chinese starter in the fall.

  • Offline san

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    Re: Starter Motor Information (and my 2015 XRt starter renewal cause for seeking
    Reply #38 on: Aug 08, 2022, 07.04 am
    Aug 08, 2022, 07.04 am
    My little message about the refusal to turn the starter on hot. In the spring, I could not start the engine from the battery, after I had stored the battery at home for a long time. Before that, in the spring, I just came to the garage, put the battery on the motorcycle, pressed the start button and started it. This spring it didn't start, the battery ran out. I charged it with a charger overnight, and, as if nothing had happened, the motorcycle started to start without any problems. But the hot starter motor did not scroll... As recommended here, I replaced the battery. I put it on 12 V 14 A. Hour, the starting current is 300 amps. At the weekend we have 33 degrees of heat, I checked everything, the motorcycle always starts. Even after a long drive on a dirt road in first gear with the fan constantly running. Off button to start, jig-jig-jig, start. And before, I had to wait 15 minutes for the engine to cool down. So replacing the battery in my case solved the problem.