Triumph Tiger 800 Forum

Tiger 800 / 900 - Main Discussion Section => ECU Re-Mapping and Tuning => Topic started by: MegaChops on September 12, 2021, 02:13:36 PM

Title: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on September 12, 2021, 02:13:36 PM
Looking for some advice. My tiger has been diagnosed with an ECU fault, the garage have said I need a new ECU, ignition set and speedo.

I can either get a new ECU / Igntion but I dont see any ECU / Igntion / Speedo sets.

My question is, why would I need a new speedo? Is it tied to the ECU like the igntion electronically or is it all attached as part of the harness.

Thanks in advance
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on September 12, 2021, 05:34:12 PM
My understanding is that the ECM uses a wheel speed sensor input possibly via the ABS module to determine road speed and passes this information to the instrument panel for display. There isn't a separate speedo as such. My understanding is also that the ECM includes the CDI functionality that generates the spark energy that is then sent to the coils and spark plugs. I'm assuming that by 'ignition set' they mean coils?
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: T800XC on September 12, 2021, 05:50:45 PM
First questions are who diagnosed the need for a new ECU etc and for what reason?

I can imagine why you would need to replace the instruments (speedo) just because the ECU is changed. The ignition replacement most likely relates to the ignition switch. Again, without knowing how or why they arrived at these conclusions it's difficult to say more.

BTW, only a dealer can pair replacement systems together.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on September 12, 2021, 06:42:01 PM
*Originally Posted by T800XC [+]
First questions are who diagnosed the need for a new ECU etc and for what reason?

I can imagine why you would need to replace the instruments (speedo) just because the ECU is changed. The ignition replacement most likely relates to the ignition switch. Again, without knowing how or why they arrived at these conclusions it's difficult to say more.

BTW, only a dealer can pair replacement systems together.

My local garage has diagnosed the ECU issue, my igntion fuse (and sometime the main fuse keep popping) so no lights at all on the dash. I broke down on the m6 on my way back from my nc500 trip. They have said I need to replace the ECU, Igntion set (because the keys are coded to the ECU) and the speedo because apparently the ECU, Igntion key and the speedo are all coded together
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on September 12, 2021, 06:44:00 PM
*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
My understanding is that the ECM uses a wheel speed sensor input possibly via the ABS module to determine road speed and passes this information to the instrument panel for display. There isn't a separate speedo as such. My understanding is also that the ECM includes the CDI functionality that generates the spark energy that is then sent to the coils and spark plugs. I'm assuming that by 'ignition set' they mean coils?


Theyve said that the igntion keys (rather than coild) are coded to the ECU so I have to replace them too, and its the same with the speedo.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: Stevie.P on September 12, 2021, 07:36:09 PM
*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
My understanding is that the ECM uses a wheel speed sensor input possibly via the ABS module to determine road speed ...

Though not showing a year against his username bike details I think (from his 1st posts here) this may be a 2011 'Gen !' model where the speedo was driven off the gearbox output shaft? :027:
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on September 12, 2021, 07:38:50 PM
*Originally Posted by Stevie.P [+]
Though not showing a year against his username bike details I think (from his 1st posts here) this may be a 2011 'Gen !' model where the speedo was driven off the gearbox output shaft? :027:

Hi, yes its a 2011 XC. It doesnt have ABS
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: KildareMan on September 12, 2021, 07:40:34 PM
*Originally Posted by MegaChops [+]
Hi, yes its a 2011 XC. It doesnt have ABS

So yes speed from sensor on gearbox output shaft.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on September 12, 2021, 08:49:03 PM
*Originally Posted by KildareMan [+]
So yes speed from sensor on gearbox output shaft.

Does that mean the Speedo is not paired / matched with the ECU and I wont have to replace / recode that too?

Thanks
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: T800XC on September 12, 2021, 09:22:51 PM
Sorry there's a typo in my post above. "can imagine" should be "can't imagine".

In other words, the instruments are not paired with the ECU.

Based on the very limited information available so far, I don't think your ECU is at fault, and even if it is, you don't need to replace the ignition set with it if you get a dealer to pair the old keys with the replacement ECU.

I have a hunch that the fault is with your instruments as there was a similar sounding fault in the last couple of years where an internal power diode went bad and kept blowing fuses. I replaced the diode for the owner and all was good again. This fault can easily be checked by unplugging the instruments, replacing the fuses, reconnecting the battery and trying the ignition once again.

I'll find the forum link to this previous case and post it here.

I don't recall faulty ECUs being a known issue with these bikes.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: T800XC on September 12, 2021, 09:51:09 PM
Ok, I've found the previous thread that I mentioned above.

https://www.tiger800.co.uk/index.php/topic,27677.0.html

There are a lot of pages but might be best to read the first page then jump to halfway down page 14 for a start of finding the cause and subsequent pages for photos of the instrument diode fault and repair. If this sounds a similar fault to yours then it would be a far cheaper fix than potentially replacing the ECU, instruments and ignition switch unnecessarily.

Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on September 12, 2021, 10:23:39 PM
*Originally Posted by T800XC [+]
Ok, I've found the previous thread that I mentioned above.

https://www.tiger800.co.uk/index.php/topic,27677.0.html

There are a lot of pages but might be best to read the first page then jump to halfway down page 14 for a start of finding the cause and subsequent pages for photos of the instrument diode fault and repair. If this sounds a similar fault to yours then it would be a far cheaper fix than potentially replacing the ECU, instruments and ignition switch unnecessarily.

Thanks so much. The fuses are the same ones that are blowing. I'll ring the garage to test it without the speedo / dash plaugged in tomorrow. Finger crossed.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on September 13, 2021, 02:05:18 PM
Spoken to the garage, apparently they are saying that the fuses blow even without the clocks plugged in and one of the ECU wires gets red hot before popping.

They have said I need a new speedo as the RPM meter is stuck on 6k so they think it has had some "electrical trauma"

Worth a shot and thanks anyway
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on September 13, 2021, 06:27:33 PM
From the previous posts, I thought it was the 5A Fuse 5 (among others) that was blowing which provides power to the instrument cluster? If so, it shouldn't blow when the instrument cluster is disconnected or have I misunderstood what has been said. Apart from the instrument cluster, Fuse 5 also provides power to the alarm which I assume is not fitted?  It would be interesting to know which ECM wire is getting hot so that we can work out what it is connected to.

At the moment, it doesn't seem clear where the problem or problems lie. The danger would be to replace the instrument cluster and ECM only to find you still have the same problem :084:
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: T800XC on September 13, 2021, 06:32:53 PM
*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
...It would be interesting to know which ECM wire is getting hot so that we can work out what it is connected to.

At the moment, it doesn't seem clear where the problem or problems lie. The danger would be to replace the instrument cluster and ECM only to find you still have the same problem :084:
:0461:
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on September 13, 2021, 07:09:54 PM
*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
From the previous posts, I thought it was the 5A Fuse 5 (among others) that was blowing which provides power to the instrument cluster? If so, it shouldn't blow when the instrument cluster is disconnected or have I misunderstood what has been said. Apart from the instrument cluster, Fuse 5 also provides power to the alarm which I assume is not fitted?  It would be interesting to know which ECM wire is getting hot so that we can work out what it is connected to.

At the moment, it doesn't seem clear where the problem or problems lie. The danger would be to replace the instrument cluster and ECM only to find you still have the same problem :084:

Its the 10a fuse with key symbol on it thats blowing, the main 30a fuse has blown once also when it first happened. Also, no my tiger doesnt have an alarm

I have to admit, the garage didnt seem confident when they said that the fuse still blows with the instuments unplugged, im not sure if to belive them.  The bike is back with me on Saturday so I can try it myself then. Can anyone tell me which one is the speedo / instuments plug to so I can disconnect it?

Thanks for your help.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: T800XC on September 13, 2021, 07:20:13 PM
*Originally Posted by MegaChops [+]
Can anyone tell me which one is the speedo / instuments plug to so I can disconnect it?
There's only one and it's on the back of the instruments.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on September 13, 2021, 07:24:35 PM
*Originally Posted by T800XC [+]
There's only one and it's on the back of the instruments.

Cool, thanks. So to confirm, I need to unplug that and see if the fuses still blow?
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on September 13, 2021, 07:50:55 PM
For the benefit of someone with a completely different electrical system on a later Tiger 800, which 10A fuse is blowing - I have no idea what the key symbol refers to. As far as I can see from the wiring diagram, there are two 10 A fuses on this bike (both labelled Fuse 3) going to the ignition switch?
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on September 13, 2021, 08:12:38 PM
*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
For the benefit of someone with a completely different electrical system on a later Tiger 800, which 10A fuse is blowing - I have no idea what the key symbol refers to. As far as I can see from the wiring diagram, there are two 10 A fuses on this bike (both labelled Fuse 3) going to the ignition switch?

I'm not sure TBH, is the number 3 on the top fused box on this pic (not my pic btw, taken from google)

(https://photos-cdn.tiger800.co.uk/tNaU.jpg)
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: grizzlybear on September 14, 2021, 07:11:19 AM
Glad to see you joined our great forum, I think I advised you to join, when you posted on Facebook. due to the great wealth of knowledge.
And The Guvnor posts have serviced again. Could be another interesting thread.
Hope the team sort it for you
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on September 14, 2021, 07:43:50 AM
My 2017 XCA has only one fuse box but I was aware yours had what Haynes referred to as the 'front' and 'rear' fuses boxes. It looks as though the 'rear' Fuse 3 is blowing which Haynes associates with the fuel pump relay, immobiliser, instrument cluster and kill switch which is consistent with the wiring diagram. What was slightly confusing to me in terms of the 'key' symbol was that the 'front' Fuse 3 also goes to the ignition switch!

At the moment, I don't think it is not clear what is blowing 'rear' Fuse 3 given that it is providing power to the instrument cluster and immobiliser among other things. If the fuse blew with the instrument cluster disconnected then this provides a bit of evidence that this is not the cause of the problem.

It would definitely be useful to know which ECM wire is getting hot so that we can work out what it is connected to. It would also be useful to know exactly what happens when the ignition is turned on and what operates before the fuse blows, if anything. I'm thinking in terms of instrument cluster functions and display and things like the fuel pump starting up?

Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on September 14, 2021, 08:54:04 AM
*Originally Posted by grizzlybear [+]
Glad to see you joined our great forum, I think I advised you to join, when you posted on Facebook. due to the great wealth of knowledge.
And The Guvnor posts have serviced again. Could be another interesting thread.
Hope the team sort it for you

Thanks man, definatly a good shout! I'm getting much more consistant advice on here :)

*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
It would definitely be useful to know which ECM wire is getting hot so that we can work out what it is connected to. It would also be useful to know exactly what happens when the ignition is turned on and what operates before the fuse blows, if anything. I'm thinking in terms of instrument cluster functions and display and things like the fuel pump starting up?

I'll check which wire is getting hot when I get the bike back on Saturday. In regards to what happens when I turn it on, the fuse just pops, nothing comes on the dash at all and the fuel pump doesnt make any noises or anything. The back red light on the bike does light up and the indicators do stll work but thats it.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on September 14, 2021, 09:24:44 AM
Ok - will be interesting to hear what you find  on Saturday.

Given that the immediate problem is Fuse 3 blowing, it will probably be a case of disconnecting electrical components in turn until you establish which one appears to be causing this particular problem. Might be a good idea to buy a big pack of 10A mini blade fuses!
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on September 14, 2021, 09:30:32 AM
*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
Might be a good idea to buy a big pack of 10A mini blade fuses!

Already done  :152:
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: T800XC on September 14, 2021, 10:06:14 AM
*Originally Posted by MegaChops [+]
They have said I need a new speedo as the RPM meter is stuck on 6k so they think it has had some "electrical trauma".
This could be explained by the fuse blowing while the instruments were doing their startup self check. The RPM needle is controlled by a stepper motor so it could have stopped at any position.

You'll know more once you try the ignition with the instruments unplugged.

If it does turn out to be a blown power zener diode on the instruments PCB, I might still have a spare new one from the last repair I did.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on September 14, 2021, 01:56:33 PM
As said, disconnecting the instrument cluster should be the first step. Hopefully, the problem will be something as simple as a blown Zener diode which do have a habit of failing short circuited. If that proves to be the case, it is highly unlikely that any damage would have been caused to any other components (apart from Fuse 3) and the hot wire going to the ECM might prove to be a bit of a red herring!
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on September 18, 2021, 06:37:26 PM
So i got my bike back today, it came back with different symptoms. After recharging the battery, the fuses are now not blowing but the electrics still arent coming on, i hear a slight fizzing sound from the ECU and can small a burned circuit smell. I'm not sure where to go from here but it does sound like a naffed ECU
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: grizzlybear on September 18, 2021, 07:29:40 PM
I think T800Xc is the man to sort problem out 👍
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on September 18, 2021, 07:58:46 PM
What did the garage do that changed the symptoms? When you say the electrics aren't coming on, exactly what happens when you switch on the ignition and what works; for example, do the indicators work? Presumably you've checked all the fuses are ok? People have previously reported a fizzing sound which turned out to be the main fuse so, if no electrics are coming on, it might be worth checking the main fuse.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: T800XC on September 18, 2021, 08:18:16 PM
*Originally Posted by MegaChops [+]
So i got my bike back today, it came back with different symptoms. After recharging the battery, the fuses are now not blowing but the electrics still arent coming on, i hear a slight fizzing sound from the ECU and can small a burned circuit smell. I'm not sure where to go from here but it does sound like a naffed ECU

Did you try switching on with the instruments and/or any other auxiliary items (e.g. immobiliser, rectifier/regulator, ABS) unplugged? This could help to narrow down the source of the problem.

If possible, also worth monitoring the current drawn from the battery when you switch on.

Take a very close look at the connectors on the ECU for signs of damage, and make sure the connectors are seated correctly.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on September 18, 2021, 08:33:22 PM
Thanks for your help chaps

*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
What did the garage do that changed the symptoms? When you say the electrics aren't coming on, exactly what happens when you switch on the ignition and what works; for example, do the indicators work? Presumably you've checked all the fuses are ok? People have previously reported a fizzing sound which turned out to be the main fuse so, if no electrics are coming on, it might be worth checking the main fuse.

The clocks dont come on, it doesnt do the fuel pump noise. The indictors still work, as does the back light. I'll check out the main fuse

*Originally Posted by T800XC [+]
Did you try switching on with the instruments and/or any other auxiliary items (e.g. immobiliser, rectifier/regulator, ABS) unplugged? This could help to narrow down the source of the problem.

If possible, also worth monitoring the current drawn from the battery when you switch on.

Take a very close look at the connectors on the ECU for signs of damage, and make sure the connectors are seated correctly.

I didnt try unplaug anything because the fuse is blowing now, so I wouldnt know if thats the cause of it. Should I uplug the above and see if its still making that noise/smell?
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: T800XC on September 18, 2021, 09:07:01 PM
*Originally Posted by MegaChops [+]
The clocks dont come on, it doesnt do the fuel pump noise. The indictors still work, as does the back light. I'll check out the main fuse

I didnt try unplaug anything because the fuse is (isn't?) blowing now, so I wouldnt know if thats the cause of it. Should I uplug the above and see if its still making that noise/smell?
Yes definitely. You need to start to eliminate possible causes.

The instruments and ECU share a common 12V line from the fuses via the ignition switch. The instruments also have a permanent 12V supply.

The indicators are separate to the ECU and instruments and powered from a different fuse. The fuel pump won't prime because it's controlled by the ECU and there's clearly a fault that needs to be fixed.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: D6864 on September 19, 2021, 01:48:19 PM
It sounds like an internal short circuit in the ECU to me, but this may be repairable as the instrument panel mentioned before was.

Whatever the cause turns out to be, once you've got the engine running again, check the regulator/rectifier is supplying around 14.4V to the battery. If it's higher, that could be the root cause of the ECU fault.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on September 19, 2021, 05:15:53 PM
*Originally Posted by T800XC [+]
Yes definitely. You need to start to eliminate possible causes.

The instruments and ECU share a common 12V line from the fuses via the ignition switch. The instruments also have a permanent 12V supply.

The indicators are separate to the ECU and instruments and powered from a different fuse. The fuel pump won't prime because it's controlled by the ECU and there's clearly a fault that needs to be fixed.

Today I've removed the clocks and its still happening with the clocks removed.

The 10a fuse i mentioned actually popped when the clocks were off, i seen some slight smoke from the ECU as well and noticed that smell. The side of the ECU got quite hot to touch as well, not sure if this is nomal.

Ive also noticed this goo seeping from the ECU at the same side it was getting hot which I'm guessing is not good.

(https://photos-cdn.tiger800.co.uk/ecu.jpg)

*Originally Posted by D6864 [+]
It sounds like an internal short circuit in the ECU to me, but this may be repairable as the instrument panel mentioned before was.

Whatever the cause turns out to be, once you've got the engine running again, check the regulator/rectifier is supplying around 14.4V to the battery. If it's higher, that could be the root cause of the ECU fault.

Thanks, ill ensure to test that.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on September 19, 2021, 05:38:12 PM
I can't see exactly what is going on with the ECM - is that a hole in the casing being shown? Either way, it looks as though the ECM may be toast! The important question is whether the ECM is the cause of the problem or has something else got a fault and taken the ECM with it? The last thing you want is to replace the ECM only to find it gets damaged again.

With the ECM and instrument cluster disconnected, I would check if the fuse still blows and, if not, whether there is any unusually high drain from the battery.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on September 19, 2021, 06:05:36 PM
*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
I can't see exactly what is going on with the ECM - is that a hole in the casing being shown? Either way, it looks as though the ECM may be toast! The important question is whether the ECM is the cause of the problem or has something else got a fault and taken the ECM with it? The last thing you want is to replace the ECM only to find it gets damaged again.

With the ECM and instrument cluster disconnected, I would check if the fuse still blows and, if not, whether there is any unusually high drain from the battery.

Thanks.

It looks like its seeping through the side of the rubber gap.  How to I check for battery drain? I have a multimeter, do I just look for the voltage dropping?
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on September 19, 2021, 07:42:53 PM
You need to remove a battery lead )doesn't matter which) and put the meter in series with it to the battery. The meter must be set on Amps just in case there is a large drain current. It's best to tap the meter lead onto the battery terminal momentarily just to guard against too much current flowing into the meter depending on what type you've got. Presumably, a fuse has not blown since you disconnected the instruments and ECM?
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on September 19, 2021, 09:01:00 PM
*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
You need to remove a battery lead )doesn't matter which) and put the meter in series with it to the battery. The meter must be set on Amps just in case there is a large drain current. It's best to tap the meter lead onto the battery terminal momentarily just to guard against too much current flowing into the meter depending on what type you've got. Presumably, a fuse has not blown since you disconnected the instruments and ECM?

Yeah, the fuse isnt blowing with the ECU disconnected.

I'll try this tomorrow and report back, thanks!
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: chuckxc on September 19, 2021, 09:42:35 PM
From the appearance of that ECU potting leak and the heat you felt I would say the (faulty)  internal resistance  is very low, so if you use your multimeter to measure current make sure it is on the highest current setting, typically 20A.

(Most multimeters have lower range scales, say 200ma, and if you use that scale you will blow the internal multimeter fuse and have to take it apart to replace.)
You might already know this but I figured it won't hurt to mention just in case.
The next question will be what caused the ECU failure.
It will be essential to eliminate possible causes like over-voltage from the Rec/Reg or downstream devices connected to the ECU outputs. And of course wiring and connectors. But, one step at a time and use a process of elimination.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on September 19, 2021, 10:41:50 PM
*Originally Posted by chuckxc [+]
From the appearance of that ECU potting leak and the heat you felt I would say the (faulty)  internal resistance  is very low, so if you use your multimeter to measure current make sure it is on the highest current setting, typically 20A.

(Most multimeters have lower range scales, say 200ma, and if you use that scale you will blow the internal multimeter fuse and have to take it apart to replace.)
You might already know this but I figured it won't hurt to mention just in case.
The next question will be what caused the ECU failure.
It will be essential to eliminate possible causes like over-voltage from the Rec/Reg or downstream devices connected to the ECU outputs. And of course wiring and connectors. But, one step at a time and use a process of elimination.

Thank you very much, and no, i didnt know this. Ive only ever used my multimeter to measure voltage and resisitance, never current.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on September 20, 2021, 07:55:13 AM
*Originally Posted by MegaChops [+]
Yeah, the fuse isnt blowing with the ECU disconnected.

I'll try this tomorrow and report back, thanks!
MegaChops, on reflection, it might not be such a good idea to use your multimeter to measure the current being drawn from the battery. A 10A fuse is rated at 10A continuous current which means that it will only blow when the current exceeds this by quite a margin. Given that your multimeter is likely to be rated at only 10A on the Amps setting, there is a good chance that its internal fuse will blow before the  motorbike 10A fuse blows in the event of a significant fault in the electrical system.

If the only fault is in the ECM which is now disconnected then your multimeter should be ok. However, the next step would probably be to plug the instrument cluster back in and to check what the extra current draw is which should be relatively small (<< 1A?). However, if there is an internal short in the instrument cluster that results in more than 10A being drawn from the battery then there is a chance of damaging your multimeter.

It would be useful to know what the battery draw is at the moment when you switch on the ignition - I'm assuming its << 5A. If you are careful, you can tap the multimeter probe momentarily against the battery terminal after plugging in the instrument cluster to get a sense of whether the current is going to be too large for the multimeter. If the current draw can be measured then 
it would provide confirmation one way or the other as to whether the instrument cluster played a part in blowing the 10A fuses.


Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on September 20, 2021, 09:17:32 AM
Good morning!

Ive measure the current draw with both the speedo unplugged and plugged in (not sure if this is significant)

This was the reading without the speed plugged in

(https://photos-cdn.tiger800.co.uk/21.jpg)

And this was the reading with the speedo plugged in

(https://photos-cdn.tiger800.co.uk/22.jpg)

I redid the test a few times and got the same results. The Multimeter was set to 10A
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: T800XC on September 20, 2021, 09:25:43 AM
MegaChops - If you don't make progress this week you could post your ECU and instruments to me and I can take a look in a safe, current limited setup.

I have a virtual 800 on my desk with an ECU, instruments and immobiliser so I can fit yours in circuit instead and monitor the current being drawn.

I'm away until Sunday but can take a look when I get back.

The 'goo' seeping from your ECU doesn't look good though. My concern is that your ECU  has been goosed by another fault not being addressed sooner.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on September 20, 2021, 09:41:19 AM
*Originally Posted by T800XC [+]
MegaChops - If you don't make progress this week you could post your ECU and instruments to me and I can take a look in a safe, current limited setup.

I have a virtual 800 on my desk with an ECU, instruments and immobiliser so I can fit yours in circuit instead and monitor the current being drawn.

I'm away until Sunday but can take a look when I get back.

The 'goo' seeping from your ECU doesn't look good though. My concern is that your ECU  has been goosed by another fault not being addressed sooner.

That would be brill if you could, especially since the garage did say I will need to replace them. obvs I will pay your going rate! Can you DM your address please?
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: T800XC on September 20, 2021, 06:36:22 PM
*Originally Posted by MegaChops [+]
...obvs I will pay your going rate!
I'm not sure you'd want to do that!  :005:




So long as postage and, if necessary, parts costs are covered that'll do. I'll send you postal details in the next day or so. No point sending it yet as I won't be there to receive the parcel.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: SOHUTAA on September 20, 2021, 09:13:45 PM
 :493: :493: :493: :493: :493:
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: T800XC on September 28, 2021, 01:02:41 PM
Royal Mail tried to deliver late last week while I was still away, so I made a quick trip to the sorting office yesterday to collect.

First checks show that 3 protection diodes inside the instruments have blown. Each of these are replaceable. I've tested the unit with them bypassed and it seems to fire up and self test ok.


(https://photos-cdn.tiger800.co.uk/Clock-Repair2-01.jpg)   (https://photos-cdn.tiger800.co.uk/Clock-Repair2-02.jpg)




The ECU on the other hand is not looking so good. The main power input pin has a very low resistance to the ground (0V) line and will draw high current if allowed. I'm running this on a controllable bench power supply so I can limit the current. I suspect this has suffered at least a similar fate to the instruments and an internal diode or similar has gone bad, hence the smell of electrical burning and the goo that was shown in the photo on page 4 of this thread.

My guess is that the rectifier/regulator has gone bad and over-voltaged everything. Normally the fuses and diodes would offer significant protection but based on earlier posted comments it would seem that the repeated replacement of fuses and 'trying again' without proper current limiting or monitoring has possibly caused the additional damage.


Repairing the ECU 'may' be possible but it's unlikely to be easy. These units are filled using a potting compound to act as a protective sealant around the PCB and its components. This stuff can be a right pain to attempt to remove and there's always the risk of causing further damage when trying to do so. That said, this ECU is FUBAR as it is so might be worth a shot?

Rather than try to unpot the whole thing and pick away at the potting compound, it may be possible to put the ECU on my CNC mill and carefully machine away the plastic casing in the area where the goo in the earlier photo was seen, which happens to be the same area as the main 12V input pin on the black connector. If that exposes an obviously damaged and identifiable component, then a repair could be attempted.


If that fails then at least a replacement ECU will be required along with a trip with the bike to a friendly Triumph dealer, who should be able to recode the ECU. The recorded VIN can't be changed to match the bike, but everything else should be doable. There are a few ECUs on eBay, but not as many as there were a few years back.

If the rectifier/regulator has caused these problems then it will also need to be replaced and fingers crossed that the immobiliser hasn't suffered a similar fate to the ECU or instruments.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on September 28, 2021, 01:32:36 PM
That was always the concern that the instrument cluster and ECM were not the original cause of the problem. If it turns out to be the regulator part of the RR, it should be possible to run the bike off the battery with the RR disconnected to get everything working again. Once working, the off line RR can then be tested with the engine running to check what voltage it is putting out, perhaps with a separate battery connected to it. However, as said, it's possible something else might have got fried if the RR was the problem.

Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on September 28, 2021, 04:28:07 PM

*Originally Posted by T800XC [+]
Royal Mail tried to deliver late last week while I was still away, so I made a quick trip to the sorting office yesterday to collect.

First checks show that 3 protection diodes inside the instruments have blown. Each of these are replaceable. I've tested the unit with them bypassed and it seems to fire up and self test ok.

The ECU on the other hand is not looking so good. The main power input pin has a very low resistance to the ground (0V) line and will draw high current if allowed. I'm running this on a controllable bench power supply so I can limit the current. I suspect this has suffered at least a similar fate to the instruments and an internal diode or similar has gone bad, hence the smell of electrical burning and the goo that was shown in the photo on page 4 of this thread.

My guess is that the rectifier/regulator has gone bad and over-voltaged everything. Normally the fuses and diodes would offer significant protection but based on earlier posted comments it would seem that the repeated replacement of fuses and 'trying again' without proper current limiting or monitoring has possibly caused the additional damage.


Repairing the ECU 'may' be possible but it's unlikely to be easy. These units are filled using a potting compound to act as a protective sealant around the PCB and its components. This stuff can be a right pain to attempt to remove and there's always the risk of causing further damage when trying to do so. That said, this ECU is FUBAR as it is so might be worth a shot?

Rather than try to unpot the whole thing and pick away at the potting compound, it may be possible to put the ECU on my CNC mill and carefully machine away the plastic casing in the area where the goo in the earlier photo was seen, which happens to be the same area as the main 12V input pin on the black connector. If that exposes an obviously damaged and identifiable component, then a repair could be attempted.


If that fails then at least a replacement ECU will be required along with a trip with the bike to a friendly Triumph dealer, who should be able to recode the ECU. The recorded VIN can't be changed to match the bike, but everything else should be doable. There are a few ECUs on eBay, but not as many as there were a few years back.

If the rectifier/regulator has caused these problems then it will also need to be replaced and fingers crossed that the immobiliser hasn't suffered a similar fate to the ECU or instruments.

Thank you so much for this, really glad the instruments are repairable, thats saved me a few hundred quid already!!

Sounds like the ECU is likely going to be unrepairable, and I wouldnt want you to go to so much work (Especially for a internet stranger) for it likely to be not repairable. I'm happy for it to go in the bin.  Most of the ECU's on ebay come with ignition sets anyway and I've read that Triumph dealers charge a couple of hundred to pair them up anyway so i'll likely just buy a combined set.

To confirm my next steps, buy and fit an ECU / igntion set
Test the Reg Rec
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: T800XC on September 28, 2021, 04:46:31 PM
*Originally Posted by MegaChops [+]
Sounds like the ECU is likely going to be unrepairable, and I wouldnt want you to go to so much work .... I'm happy for it to go in the bin
In that case curiosity will likely get the better of me!


I'll need to order a couple of diodes to repair the instruments, which might take a few days or so to arrive, then I can fit them and get it posted back to you.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on September 28, 2021, 05:16:59 PM
*Originally Posted by T800XC [+]
In that case curiosity will likely get the better of me!


I'll need to order a couple of diodes to repair the instruments, which might take a few days or so to arrive, then I can fit them and get it posted back to you.

Sounds good!
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: grizzlybear on September 28, 2021, 06:16:41 PM
Awesome, as good as the Guvnor Post 👍
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: T800XC on September 29, 2021, 04:23:32 PM
I managed to remove the ex-diodes from the instruments PCB today. Looks like things got damn hot in there as the copper has delaminated from the fibreglass PCB. It should still be OK to fit a new diode onto the lifted copper, if done carefully.

(https://photos-cdn.tiger800.co.uk/Clock-Repair2-03.jpg)

Replacement diodes are on order but I've had to get them from the US as I can't find suitable stocks from my usual suppliers in the UK. I've added the parts to a planned order that I was getting ready, so that saves on the shipping costs! Hopefully they'll be here by Monday.



Sadly though, after carefully machining away a corner of the outer case and picking at the potting compound, the ECU is clearly toast. There are two components (at least one of them a diode) that have all-but evaporated in there, leaving just the metallic parts and the tell-tale smell from where the magic smoke escaped!

The copper traces are in a bad state and the fibreglass PCB has got so hot that it's burnt through to also damage an internal copper layer under the one visible in the photo below.

(https://photos-cdn.tiger800.co.uk/ECU-Repair-01.jpg)

Well it was worth a shot, but the damage was just too great to consider going any further.  :003:
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on September 29, 2021, 06:51:42 PM
Oh my, those both look like they have had a bit of a shock. Fingers crossed the instruments survive.

I'll get a new ECU & Igntion set ordered. Does this one look right > https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/154581115041?hash=item23fdc0a0a1:g:LTIAAOSw6WRhI8LX ?

Looking at the electrical damage, is it safe to say the Reg Rec is putting through a too high voltage and I need a new one? My bike battery is actually knackered too and not holding a charge, so am I right in saying thats likely related?
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: T800XC on September 29, 2021, 07:19:08 PM
*Originally Posted by MegaChops [+]
Oh my, those both look like they have had a bit of a shock. Fingers crossed the instruments survive.

I'll get a new ECU & Igntion set ordered. Does this one look right > https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/154581115041?hash=item23fdc0a0a1:g:LTIAAOSw6WRhI8LX ?

Looking at the electrical damage, is it safe to say the Reg Rec is putting through a too high voltage and I need a new one? My bike battery is actually knackered too and not holding a charge, so am I right in saying thats likely related?

From the partial VIN that's viewable in the photos, that setup is from a 2012 German ABS model. I'm not sure if the ECU itself will be OK if you can get a dealer to re-flash it for you. I think the base model ECUs are the same for bikes around that time but need to be programmed to suit the model. I've not tried any of that but someone on here might be able to say whether you can do this yourself by putting the XC non-ABS tune in there using TuneECU.



As for your R/R, there's a good chance that it also trashed your battery for good measure.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: T800XC on September 29, 2021, 07:23:38 PM
More expensive but this one's a much closer match to yours (non-ABS 800XC from 2011)...

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/154599240096

Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: Stevie.P on September 29, 2021, 07:27:08 PM
I dread to think how much voltage/current flowed to cause this much damage as I had my RR intermittently playing up for the best part of 6 months before it became a permanent recognisable fault and at that point at tick over I had 19v and still riding it but luckily got away with just renewing the RR.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: grizzlybear on September 30, 2021, 06:50:56 AM
Awesome thread, shows what  a great forum we got.  :123:

And why we should all have a voltage indicator fitted, I got one in my accessories port by handlebars. Only cost 15 odd quid
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on September 30, 2021, 08:26:07 AM
Never worried about this previously but, clearly, if the shunt regulator fails you may well end up with a large unregulated output voltage from the R/R which could result in severe damage to the battery and electronics which is likely to be what happened here.  I have just ordered a plug-in voltage indicator for my XCA to give piece of mind :169:
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: T800XC on September 30, 2021, 02:33:53 PM
*Originally Posted by Stevie.P [+]
I dread to think how much voltage/current flowed to cause this much damage...
A lot!

I guess the overvoltage caused the initial component damage then repeated re-powering with a new 10A fuse kept dumping more current through the board. At some point the current being drawn wasn't enough to blow the 10A fuse but was enough to gradually burn the copper traces and PCB.

This photo shows the underside of the ECU board (after I'd fully cut it from its plastic housing). The isolated pin on the end is the 12V input and shows how the heat also melted the solder, leaving the pin unconnected.

(https://photos-cdn.tiger800.co.uk/ECU-Repair-02.jpg)



This final photo shows the top of the ECU board with more of the rubberised potting compound removed. Just for interest, I wanted to find where the EEPROM was located as it holds the setup information. It's the 8-pin chip towards the top left of the photo. You could, potentially, read the data from this chip and program it into the same chip on another ECU to save changing the locks.

(https://photos-cdn.tiger800.co.uk/ECU-Repair-03.jpg)
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on October 02, 2021, 07:49:46 AM
From an electronics point of view, I'm surprised that an over-voltage could cause so much damage - I would have expected any circuit regulators and similar components to have failed (burnt out) fairly quickly thus protecting the rest of the circuit :084:
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: T800XC on October 02, 2021, 08:20:07 AM
*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
From an electronics point of view, I'm surprised that an over-voltage could cause so much damage - I would have expected any circuit regulators and similar components to have failed (burnt out) fairly quickly thus protecting the rest of the circuit :084:
In the case of the instruments the over voltage killed the TVS diode which went short circuit. Being directly across the 12V & ground lines meant whenever voltage was applied it got hot until the fuse blew, hence the damage that was seen. This is the second Tiger 800 instrument panel that I've fixed because of this.

I applied similar logic to what may have happened to the ECU. Certainly a diode had gone pop in there where the burnt PCB can be seen, at least.

Over voltage will often cause damage that's not immediately obvious but can lead to a gradual failure. ESD is a classic example of this.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on November 03, 2021, 06:33:10 PM
Sorry for the delayed response, had to wait to get a bit of cash together.

The ECU now ordered and should be here for Friday, I bought that one you suggested @T800XC. I have a new battery as well.

I think the last thing is to look at the reg rec, looking at the voltage / current that has gone through the clocks and ECU, should I just assume the one I have is naffed (as thats responsible for keeping the voltage <14v)? Can anyone link me to one for my bike please?

Thanks
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on November 04, 2021, 06:14:36 AM
In principle, you should be able to disconnect the R/R output from the wiring harness and then run the bike for a short while using power from just the battery. If you can get the engine running again, you will then be able to measure the 'regulated' output from the R/R which will in all likelihood be greatly in excess of 14.5V showing it is no longer regulating the rectified voltage from the generator and needs to be replaced.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on November 04, 2021, 08:22:57 AM
As far as I can see, the OEM R/R for all the tiger 800's was T1300675 but some aftermarket ones advertised for the Tiger 800 are stated to be compatible with OEM part T1300470 which was used on other Triumph bikes. That said, the very cheap one below says it is compatible with both OEM parts :084:

https://motorcyclepartswarehouse.co.uk/replacement-regulator-rectifier-for-bmw-honda-kawasaki-triumph-yamaha.html?gclid=CjwKCAjwiY6MBhBqEiwARFSCPqVCK68VLq81yzxN8IQjtQ1NHzyDzR9UKN2_sGkeJih2YIhLSMm6rRoC4LQQAvD_BwE
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on November 04, 2021, 11:30:22 AM
*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
In principle, you should be able to disconnect the R/R output from the wiring harness and then run the bike for a short while using power from just the battery. If you can get the engine running again, you will then be able to measure the 'regulated' output from the R/R which will in all likelihood be greatly in excess of 14.5V showing it is no longer regulating the rectified voltage from the generator and needs to be replaced.

Thanks pal, ive been watching some videos of testing the reg reg, can you confirm which side is the regulatated output. Also, where is the reg rec located on my bike?

*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
As far as I can see, the OEM R/R for all the tiger 800's was T1300675 but some aftermarket ones advertised for the Tiger 800 are stated to be compatible with OEM part T1300470 which was used on other Triumph bikes. That said, the very cheap one below says it is compatible with both OEM parts :084:

https://motorcyclepartswarehouse.co.uk/replacement-regulator-rectifier-for-bmw-honda-kawasaki-triumph-yamaha.html?gclid=CjwKCAjwiY6MBhBqEiwARFSCPqVCK68VLq81yzxN8IQjtQ1NHzyDzR9UKN2_sGkeJih2YIhLSMm6rRoC4LQQAvD_BwE

Thanks so much, the official part number is very handy and brings up much more fruitful search results. Ive found some seocnd hand ones on ebay for 50 pounds, would you recommend those or a new non OEM one?
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on November 04, 2021, 11:51:34 AM
The R/R is mounted above the radiator to receive a cooling air stream. The output connector is black and should have only two wires, a red one and a black one.

The problem with buying secondhand is that there will be no guarantee that it is in good working order and you will definitely need to test it in the way suggested before connecting to the battery. However, the OEM one is well over £200 although you can buy non-OEM a lot cheaper. If it was me, I would be looking to buy a new one from a good source for closer to £100.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on November 05, 2021, 01:17:00 PM

The clocks come on with the new igntion & ECU :046:

(https://photos-cdn.tiger800.co.uk/clock.jpg)

So thats all good, I'm getting there, but I could do with some more advice if possible please

I cant get the old igntion switch off (ivejust plugged the new one in, not actually fitted it), it looks like the nut on the old one is welded on at the bottom and there are no screws / bolt at the top

(https://photos-cdn.tiger800.co.uk/bolt.jpg)
(https://photos-cdn.tiger800.co.uk/bolt2.jpg)

Is it a case of my just driing through do you think?

Also, I'm still struggling to locate the reg / rec, is this it?

(https://photos-cdn.tiger800.co.uk/reg.jpg)

If so, how do I get to it? Do i have to remove the radiator or do I remove the black box thing thats it the front of it.

Thanks again all
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: T800XC on November 05, 2021, 01:48:33 PM
*Originally Posted by MegaChops [+]
I cant get the old igntion switch off...it looks like the nut on the old one is welded on at the bottom and there are no screws / bolt at the top...

(https://photos-cdn.tiger800.co.uk/bolt2.jpg)

Is it a case of my just driing through do you think?
Yes, drill carefully from the top. They're shear bolts and new ones will be needed when you come to fit the replacement switch etc.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on November 05, 2021, 02:15:12 PM
Unfortunately, I believe you need to unhook the radiator first to get at the R/R which is likely to be a bit fiddly.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: grizzlybear on November 05, 2021, 03:49:42 PM
Glad to hear your bike is coming together 👍.
I vaguely recollect StevieP has a link for a cheap pattern rectifier 🤔
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: T800XC on November 05, 2021, 04:12:25 PM
*Originally Posted by grizzlybear [+]
I vaguely recollect StevieP has a link for a cheap pattern rectifier 🤔
...and possibly information on the easiest way to replace it without dismantling half of the bike.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on November 05, 2021, 05:02:27 PM
Having looked a bit further into what is involved in removing the R/R, the problem is that it bolted to a bracket inside the V of the frame just behind the top mounting bracket for the radiator. The R/R can only be removed in the forward direction and there's not enough clearance without pivoting the top of the radiator out of the way. Even then, it's a tight squeeze.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: Stevie.P on November 05, 2021, 05:33:07 PM
*Originally Posted by grizzlybear [+]
I vaguely recollect StevieP has a link for a cheap pattern rectifier 🤔

No, I tried to get a cheaper pattern R/R from Squaredeals but they were out of stock awaiting a delivery from Germany so I bought a genuine R/R from my dealer as it was time critical to fix the bike to get to a Megameet. There have been quite a few subsequent posts by members who have had both good and bad experiences of cheap pattern R/R's. IMO if you can afford it get a genuine Shindengen R/R.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: Stevie.P on November 05, 2021, 05:47:23 PM
*Originally Posted by T800XC [+]
...and possibly information on the easiest way to replace it without dismantling half of the bike.

Mine is a 'Gen 2' bike but I doubt there is much difference. The task isn't too hard, just a bit fiddly in a few places.

The bulk of the task was done with a 8mm socket and Allen key bit (mainly for the body panels I think) and a few other bits, nothing special.

(https://photos-cdn.tiger800.co.uk/01.-Tools-Required.jpg)

This is purely from memory and it was May 2018 I did it. Remove the body panels on either side of the radiator, maybe a clutch cable guide bolted to side of rad, a bolt or nut & bolt on the bottom bracket of the rad, and the top RH side rad fixing bolt. The LH side is a dowel pushed into the rubber grommet, so gently slide the rad to the right to clear the pin and allow the rad to hang forward and down naturally on its hoses. The PITA bit then (for me) was actually getting the 2 plugs off the R/R. It is then a (bit fiddly) just removing the 2 R/R mounting bolts out.

(https://photos-cdn.tiger800.co.uk/DSCN3738---Copy.jpg)

(https://photos-cdn.tiger800.co.uk/DSCN3748---Copy.jpg)
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on November 05, 2021, 06:29:26 PM
*Originally Posted by Stevie.P [+]
Mine is a 'Gen 2' bike but I doubt there is much difference. The task isn't too hard, just a bit fiddly in a few places.

The bulk of the task was done with a 8mm socket and Allen key bit (mainly for the body panels I think) and a few other bits, nothing special.

This is purely from memory and it was May 2018 I did it. Remove the body panels on either side of the radiator, maybe a clutch cable guide bolted to side of rad, a bolt or nut & bolt on the bottom bracket of the rad, and the top RH side rad fixing bolt. The LH side is a dowel pushed into the rubber grommet, so gently slide the rad to the right to clear the pin and allow the rad to hang forward and down naturally on its hoses. The PITA bit then (for me) was actually getting the 2 plugs off the R/R. It is then a (bit fiddly) just removing the 2 R/R mounting bolts out.


Thanks for this. I've took you advice and ordered a new OEM one, it should be here on wednesday.

Thanks again for all your help everyone! You are all legends in my book
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on November 10, 2021, 09:43:32 AM
Hey All,

The Bike is now back together with the new Reg Reg (The instructions were spot on Stevie.P) but shes not starting :(

All the lights come on as they should, fuel pump does the fax noise but pressing the start button doesnt turn the starter motor at all, no clicks or anything.

Any ideas anyone?

Thanks
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on November 10, 2021, 12:08:45 PM
Update: Its now NOT making the fuel pump fax noises

Ive looked at all the fuses and theyre good.

Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: T800XC on November 10, 2021, 12:24:16 PM
Can you run diagnostics (TigerTool / Dealertool etc) to check for DTCs?
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on November 10, 2021, 02:53:22 PM
*Originally Posted by T800XC [+]
Can you run diagnostics (TigerTool / Dealertool etc) to check for DTCs?

Thanks for your reply.

Maybe, i have the old USB to ODB lead that came with my tiger 955i, will that do?



Ive never used either TigerTool or DealerTool, I only have a Mac laptop, but I can setup my windows desktop near the bike if needed.

Thanks again.

(https://photos-cdn.tiger800.co.uk/253334690_263874245755059_5582014811027089704_n.jpg)
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: T800XC on November 10, 2021, 03:06:06 PM
*Originally Posted by MegaChops [+]

Maybe, i have the old USB to ODB lead that came with my tiger 955i, will that do?
Sadly not. That lead should work with the Windows version of TuneECU, although TuneECU is only supported on Android now.

If you can't find it, I can point you in the direction for a copy. I think V2.5.8 was the last Windows version.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on November 10, 2021, 04:09:56 PM
*Originally Posted by T800XC [+]
Sadly not. That lead should work with the Windows version of TuneECU, although TuneECU is only supported on Android now.

If you can't find it, I can point you in the direction for a copy. I think V2.5.8 was the last Windows version.

Thanks, will TuneECU give me the diagnostics info I need?
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: T800XC on November 10, 2021, 04:28:23 PM
*Originally Posted by MegaChops [+]
Thanks, will TuneECU give me the diagnostics info I need?
Yes, it should do.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on November 10, 2021, 05:34:55 PM
Cool, thanks again!

So, ive connected it all up and this is what I get

(https://photos-cdn.tiger800.co.uk/158caa41ec912959a.png)

(https://photos-cdn.tiger800.co.uk/262aeaf3c135464be.png)

Cheers
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on November 10, 2021, 05:52:04 PM
Another update, I've cleared the P0460 fault as that was me turning the ignition on without the tank on. Restarting everything brings up no error codes

Ive Pulled in the Clutch and that goes green on the bottom left, as does the Start Switch
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on November 11, 2021, 11:53:37 AM
Another update, I have installed windows on my Mac to make the diagnostics easier.

The following tests pass

Tachometer (does various movements / lights on the speedo)
Cooling Fan (comes on and off a few times)
Fuel Pump (makes a whirring sound)
Idle Speed Control (makes fax noises)

SAI says its unsupportted

One other thing to note, is that the front light has gone off. Not sure if just the bulb has gone but I know its switched off automatically during the starting sequence so not sure if its pertinent. I hav checked all the fuses

Any ideas at all?
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: D6864 on November 11, 2021, 12:09:08 PM
It won't start without the headlights as they are part of the starting circuit, fingers crossed luck changing the bulbs will get it going
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: grizzlybear on November 11, 2021, 12:44:46 PM
He getting there :152:
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on November 11, 2021, 01:16:52 PM
*Originally Posted by D6864 [+]
It won't start without the headlights as they are part of the starting circuit, fingers crossed luck changing the bulbs will get it going

Checked bulbs and there were both indeed blown, ive bought some new ones and replaced but shes still not starting (not turning over). Least the headlights are working now though  :001:
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on November 11, 2021, 01:43:10 PM
Could this potentially be the issue?

https://www.triumphtalk.com/threads/will-not-start-if-fuel-gauge-does-not-register.17859/

As you can see on the below pic, my fuel isnt registering (there is about 1/3 a tank full of petrol). Ive tried shaking it side to side like mentioned on the thread but no bars show up on the speedo
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on November 11, 2021, 02:10:35 PM
I think the fuel gauge can be a bit peculiar in its behaviour - I've had many occasions when it registered no bars until some distance down the road but the bike started ok.

Your problem is similar to what was experienced by another forum member some time back; namely, that the bike would not start and it was difficult to work out exactly what was causing the ECM to disable the starting circuit. Unfortunately, even with TuneECU, the ECM will not necessarily tell you what the problem is which is very frustrating.

Other members might have a better suggestion but it may be a case of checking every ECM sensor or switch input in turn to see which one might be causing the problem. Previously, I started to make a list of things to check and would be happy to finish the list if it is going to help.
 
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on November 11, 2021, 02:37:20 PM
*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
Other members might have a better suggestion but it may be a case of checking every ECM sensor or switch input in turn to see which one might be causing the problem. Previously, I started to make a list of things to check and would be happy to finish the list if it is going to help.

Thanks Man, yeah a list of stuff to check would be useful :) I'm stuck on what to try now
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: D6864 on November 11, 2021, 03:15:36 PM
Don't worry about the fuel gauge, it won't register until you've ridden a short distance.

Do the start switch and start relay go green in TuneECU when you hit the start button? Any relay clicks?

Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: characticus on November 11, 2021, 03:42:36 PM
Is the 2011 bike fitted with an immobiliser, and did your new lockset include the immobiliser control unit? If not then the old unit may be looking for the transponder in your old key.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on November 11, 2021, 04:03:27 PM
I was going to suggest that the first thing to check is whether the immobiliser appears to be working. If so, the immobiliser warning light should flash when you switch off the ignition and should go out when the ignition is switched on.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: T800XC on November 11, 2021, 04:16:45 PM
*Originally Posted by characticus [+]
Is the 2011 bike fitted with an immobiliser, and did your new lockset include the immobiliser control unit? If not then the old unit may be looking for the transponder in your old key.

The photo posted by MegaChops last Friday suggests that the immobiliser is working fine (warning light is off).
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on November 11, 2021, 04:34:30 PM
*Originally Posted by D6864 [+]
Don't worry about the fuel gauge, it won't register until you've ridden a short distance.

Do the start switch and start relay go green in TuneECU when you hit the start button? Any relay clicks?

The Start Switch does, the Start Relay doesnt. Here is an image of TuneECU when I hold the clutch and press the start button. I dont hear any relay clicks

(https://photos-cdn.tiger800.co.uk/Untitled.png)

*Originally Posted by characticus [+]
Is the 2011 bike fitted with an immobiliser, and did your new lockset include the immobiliser control unit? If not then the old unit may be looking for the transponder in your old key.

I think so, this is what the new lock looks like. Is the immobiliser control unit something differant than that? THere isnt an immobiliser  light lit on the dash


(https://photos-cdn.tiger800.co.uk/lock.jpg)
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: characticus on November 11, 2021, 04:40:25 PM
According to the maintenance manual:

The Tiger 800 and 800XC models are fitted with an electronic immobiliser system to help protect against theft. The system has to be paired with the ECM and the ignition key which contains a transponder chip. If all the components are correctly paired, the immobiliser will allow the engine to start. The Triumph diagnostic tool is the only way these components can be paired.  The system components and operation are:

Transponder chip - situated inside the ignition key. The chip is activated by the antenna coil when the ignition switch is turned to the ON position.

Antenna coil - situated around the ignition switch. When the switch is turned to the ON position the transponder chip is activated, the signal from the chip is sent to the immobiliser/TPMS control module.

Immobiliser/TMS Control Module. Situated under the headstock. The control module communicates with the transponder chip in the key and the ECM and will only allow the engine to start if a matching signal is received.

Alarm/Immobiliser warning indicator light. Situated in the instrument pack. The light will flash on and off for 24 hours to show that the engine immobiliser is on. When the ignition key is turned to the ON position the immobiliser and indicator light will be off. If the indicator light remains on it indicates that the immobiliser has a malfunction that requires investigation.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on November 11, 2021, 04:47:23 PM
*Originally Posted by characticus [+]

Immobiliser/TMS Control Module. Situated under the headstock. The control module communicates with the transponder chip in the key and the ECM and will only allow the engine to start if a matching signal is received.



I think I know which black box this is, it sits behind the reg/reg. From what I've read, that unit is responsible for reading the key but doesnt include the code itself. It just sends the signal to the ECU. I didnt get a new one of these with my new lockset, so fingers crossed someone can confirm?
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on November 11, 2021, 04:49:01 PM
Also, another thing that might be important, this is the noise it makes when I turn the bike on (assume it wouldnt get that far if the immobilser was blocking it?)


It only does this once, unless I disconnect and reconnect the battery. Does that sound a bit longer than normal or it just me?
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: T800XC on November 11, 2021, 05:13:26 PM
*Originally Posted by MegaChops [+]
Also, another thing that might be important, this is the noise it makes when I turn the bike on (assume it wouldnt get that far if the immobilser was blocking it?)

It only does this once, unless I disconnect and reconnect the battery. Does that sound a bit longer than normal or it just me?

It should do that each time the ignition is switched on (if the key passes the ID check), so long as you leave the ignition turned off for at least 60s to allow the fuel pump to depressurise the fuel line.

There's some confliction between what you're seeing and what's in the service manual with regards to the immobiliser. The service manual says the ECM and immobiliser have to be paired but in your case the alarm / immobiliser light is turning off suggesting that the ignition key is being correctly read by your new ECM. For reference, the pairing fault code is P1508 and also causes the MIL to flash fast. It doesn't sound like you're seeing either of these.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on November 11, 2021, 06:11:05 PM
*Originally Posted by T800XC [+]
It should do that each time the ignition is switched on (if the key passes the ID check), so long as you leave the ignition turned off for at least 60s to allow the fuel pump to depressurise the fuel line.

There's some confliction between what you're seeing and what's in the service manual with regards to the immobiliser. The service manual says the ECM and immobiliser have to be paired but in your case the alarm / immobiliser light is turning off suggesting that the ignition key is being correctly read by your new ECM. For reference, the pairing fault code is P1508 and also causes the MIL to flash fast. It doesn't sound like you're seeing either of these.

Thanks. I've just hooked the old ignition system up as a test, and it does indeed do exactly as you have described (Flashing engine light). I wonder if the Immobiliser also checks the keycode as well as the ECU, but doesnt flash the Engine light.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on November 12, 2021, 06:25:34 AM
Any chance of a recap on where you've got to in terms of the immobiliser appearing to function correctly or not. My assumption is that if the immobiliser warning light (bell symbol) flashes when the ignition is turned off and then goes out when the ignition is switched on, the immobiliser would appear to be working correctly. At most, I assume that the above only happens with one of the ignition barrels that you've tried but I'm not sure whether this is with the new one or the old one?

Also, as an aside, what version of TuneECU are you using because it appears to be V2.5.8, whereas, the latest version I've just installed is V5.4.40?
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on November 12, 2021, 09:01:45 AM
*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
Any chance of a recap on where you've got to in terms of the immobiliser appearing to function correctly or not. My assumption is that if the immobiliser warning light (bell symbol) flashes when the ignition is turned off and then goes out when the ignition is switched on, the immobiliser would appear to be working correctly. At most, I assume that the above only happens with one of the ignition barrels that you've tried but I'm not sure whether this is with the new one or the old one?

The Bell symbol does not come on at all with the igntion on or off. I didnt actually notice this, but it used to flash (when the bike was working) when the ignition was off like it had an alarm. It doesnt anymore, im guessing this indictates an immobiliser issue?

The Engine light on flashes when I try the old Ignition system.

*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]

Also, as an aside, what version of TuneECU are you using because it appears to be V2.5.8, whereas, the latest version I've just installed is V5.4.40?

I only have a USB cable and dont own an Android, so the latest version for windows is V2.5.8

*Originally Posted by T800XC [+]
It should do that each time the ignition is switched on (if the key passes the ID check), so long as you leave the ignition turned off for at least 60s to allow the fuel pump to depressurise the fuel line.

Strangley, It only does it when Ive disconnected and reconnected the battery. I tried this morning and it didnt make the noise when I turned the key
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: D6864 on November 12, 2021, 09:28:23 AM
*Originally Posted by MegaChops [+]
The Start Switch does, the Start Relay doesnt. Here is an image of TuneECU when I hold the clutch and press the start button. I dont hear any relay clicks

(https://photos-cdn.tiger800.co.uk/Untitled.png)

The battery needs charging, it's at only 11.3V.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: D6864 on November 12, 2021, 09:31:33 AM
*Originally Posted by MegaChops [+]
It only does this once, unless I disconnect and reconnect the battery. Does that sound a bit longer than normal or it just me?
That sounds like the noise mine normally makes after ignition off, perhaps it does this the first time the battery is connected to reset the position of the stepper motor. At ignition on, I only hear the fuel pump then just a few ticks from the stepper.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on November 12, 2021, 09:38:43 AM
*Originally Posted by MegaChops
The Bell symbol does not come on at all with the igntion on or off. I didnt actually notice this, but it used to flash (when the bike was working) when the ignition was off like it had an alarm. It doesnt anymore, im guessing this indictates an immobiliser issue?

The Engine light on flashes when I try the old Ignition system.

It looks as though the immobiliser setup is not working as it should if the warning light is not coming on. As a minimum, I would have thought the new keys would need to be paired with the ECU which, unfortunately, can only be done by a Triumph Dealer. I assume that the same thing happens with the old ignition system with an engine warning light also thrown in for good measure?
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on November 12, 2021, 10:43:48 AM
*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
It looks as though the immobiliser setup is not working as it should if the warning light is not coming on. As a minimum, I would have thought the new keys would need to be paired with the ECU which, unfortunately, can only be done by a Triumph Dealer. I assume that the same thing happens with the old ignition system with an engine warning light also thrown in for good measure?

I bought the New ignition with the ECU as a matching set. With the old keys & ignition, I get a flashing engine light
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on November 12, 2021, 11:14:27 AM
I guess the issue to be resolved is whether the immobiler function is being disabled when you turn on the ignition - normally, the flashing warning light should go out to confirm this. I am going to have a play with TuneECU shortly and will see if there is any indication from this in regard to the status of the immobiliser.

What I don't know is exactly what functions are disabled by the immobiliser; for example, if the fuel pump powers up does that mean  the immobiliser has been disabled? It would be nice to see a top level functional block diagram for the ECU to be able to answer questions like this :084:
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on November 12, 2021, 12:33:18 PM
*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
I guess the issue to be resolved is whether the immobiler function is being disabled when you turn on the ignition - normally, the flashing warning light should go out to confirm this. I am going to have a play with TuneECU shortly and will see if there is any indication from this in regard to the status of the immobiliser.

What I don't know is exactly what functions are disabled by the immobiliser; for example, if the fuel pump powers up does that mean  the immobiliser has been disabled? It would be nice to see a top level functional block diagram for the ECU to be able to answer questions like this :084:

I'm actually wondering if the immboliser is functional at all, concidering that My ECU, Clocks and headlights all suffered from electrical trauma from the faulty Reg Rec, is there a possibility the immobiliser also suffered the same fate.

Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on November 12, 2021, 12:36:21 PM
I didn't like to mention it but that was an obvious concern :084:

 
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on November 12, 2021, 12:49:18 PM
We  talk about an immobiliser but that a slight misnomer because the little black box (behind the R/R?) is just the electronics required to read the code from the ignition key. My understanding is that the little black box then sends the code to the ECU via the Can-Bus and it is the ECU which actually provides the immobiliser function (in the old days, the little black box provided this function).

In principle, it should be possible to plug into the Can-Bus via the diagnostics connector and check to see whether the immobiliser communicates over the bus when the ignition is switched on. I've tried TuneECU but couldn't see anything which allowed this check to be carried out.

I believe T800XC said he had a test bed set up for a Tiger and wonder whether he might be able to check out your immobiliser functioning :084:



Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: grizzlybear on November 12, 2021, 03:33:47 PM
All this technical stuff is above my pay grade :087:

Keep up the good work guys, I'm sure between you all, Megachops will soon be mobile again :001:
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on November 12, 2021, 05:56:46 PM
MegaChops. You say that, with the old ignition system connected, the engine management light flashes. However, if the immobiliser has failed, I would have thought both the new and old ignition systems would produce the same effect since the ECU will have no way of telling them apart. Therefore, it would be worthwhile reading the fault code associated with the flashing engine management light, assuming there is one. If that shows the pairing fault indicated by T800XC then that might prove the immobiliser is still working.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on November 12, 2021, 06:17:29 PM
*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
MegaChops. You say that, with the old ignition system connected, the engine management light flashes. However, if the immobiliser has failed, I would have thought both the new and old ignition systems would produce the same effect since the ECU will have no way of telling them apart. Therefore, it would be worthwhile reading the fault code associated with the flashing engine management light, assuming there is one. If that shows the pairing fault indicated by T800XC then that might prove the immobiliser is still working.

It seems to be working like you suggest, I get this fault code when using my old ignition and  key

(https://photos-cdn.tiger800.co.uk/Capture.png)
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: T800XC on November 12, 2021, 08:19:07 PM
*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
We  talk about an immobiliser but that a slight misnomer because the little black box (behind the R/R?) is just the electronics required to read the code from the ignition key. My understanding is that the little black box then sends the code to the ECU via the Can-Bus and it is the ECU which actually provides the immobiliser function (in the old days, the little black box provided this function).

In principle, it should be possible to plug into the Can-Bus via the diagnostics connector and check to see whether the immobiliser communicates over the bus when the ignition is switched on. I've tried TuneECU but couldn't see anything which allowed this check to be carried out.

I believe T800XC said he had a test bed set up for a Tiger and wonder whether he might be able to check out your immobiliser functioning :084:
This is pretty-much correct on all fronts.

This is my understanding of how the key authentication works:-

When power is applied to the immobiliser it sends a message to the ECU via the CAN bus to say it's ready.
If it's not ready the ECU asks the immobiliser to read the ignition key's ID. It will do this upto 10 times until a successful read has been made or until it bails out.
The immobiliser reads the ID and after an encrypted handshake between the ECU and immobiliser if the codes match the ECU indicates that the ssytem is unlocked via
If the codes don't match or if the key ID wasn't read correctly, the ECU sends a different message to indicate the system is locked (immobilised).

It's easy with an ELM327-based interface lead to monitor these messages on the CAN bus if you know which messages to look for. I have several sets of data where I monitored the comms while covering the key in foil to mask the internal ID chip to prevent it being read.

I do have a test bed where I can look closely at this and also have old notes relating to it, but I'm away for a several days and have limited notes on my laptop so can't take a look until early next week.

I'm not sure why the alarm indicator LED isn't flashing when the ignition is turned off, which is slightly puzzling. I presume MegaChops doesn't have an alarm fitted to the bike otherwise that may affect the LED function.


From everything I've read, the immobiliser and ECU seem to be doing their jobs correctly. That said, TuneECU can't read the immobiliser DTCs to see if there was an issue with the it function. It needs to look for DTC L0008 which, as far as I know, can only be read using Triumph's own diagostic software or with TigerTool.


Of more interest to me is the fact that there's no starter relay click when the start button is pressed. Do the headlights switch off when you press the start button? If not, the start relay isn't being energised. Power to this routes through the start switch and the alarm connector. All of these need to be checked to see what happens when the start switch is pressed.

I can provide some pointers on what to measure and where if that helps.

Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on November 12, 2021, 08:33:01 PM
*Originally Posted by T800XC [+]
This is pretty-much correct on all fronts.

This is my understanding of how the key authentication works:-

When power is applied to the immobiliser it sends a message to the ECU via the CAN bus to say it's ready.
If it's not ready the ECU asks the immobiliser to read the ignition key's ID. It will do this upto 10 times until a successful read has been made or until it bails out.
The immobiliser reads the ID and after an encrypted handshake between the ECU and immobiliser if the codes match the ECU indicates that the ssytem is unlocked via
If the codes don't match or if the key ID wasn't read correctly, the ECU sends a different message to indicate the system is locked (immobilised).

It's easy with an ELM327-based interface lead to monitor these messages on the CAN bus if you know which messages to look for. I have several sets of data where I monitored the comms while covering the key in foil to mask the internal ID chip to prevent it being read.

I do have a test bed where I can look closely at this and also have old notes relating to it, but I'm away for a several days and have limited notes on my laptop so can't take a look until early next week.

I'm not sure why the alarm indicator LED isn't flashing when the ignition is turned off, which is slightly puzzling. I presume MegaChops doesn't have an alarm fitted to the bike otherwise that may affect the LED function.


From everything I've read, the immobiliser and ECU seem to be doing their jobs correctly. That said, TuneECU can't read the immobiliser DTCs to see if there was an issue with the it function. It needs to look for DTC L0008 which, as far as I know, can only be read using Triumph's own diagostic software or with TigerTool.


Of more interest to me is the fact that there's no starter relay click when the start button is pressed. Do the headlights switch off when you press the start button? If not, the start relay isn't being energised. Power to this routes through the start switch and the alarm connector. All of these need to be checked to see what happens when the start switch is pressed.

I can provide some pointers on what to measure and where if that helps.

Hi, thanks so much for you help!

I dont have an alarm system on the bike. Ive just checked the jumper wires on the alarm connector plug under the back seat to make sure I havent inadvertantly knocked them out, and they are all still connected as they should be

No, the lights dont dip when I press the starter. It would be brill if you could let me know what to check, ill get that done next. Could the starter relay be faulty do you think?

Also, you mentioned before that it should do Fuel Pump noises whenever I switch it on, it doesnt do that for some reason although the fuel pump does make the noises when using the TuneECU test.

Thanks again
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: T800XC on November 12, 2021, 08:53:29 PM
*Originally Posted by MegaChops [+]
Hi, thanks so much for you help!

I dont have an alarm system on the bike. Ive just checked the jumper wires on the alarm connector plug under the back seat to make sure I havent inadvertantly knocked them out, and they are all still connected as they should be

No, the lights dont dip when I press the starter. It would be brill if you could let me know what to check, ill get that done next. Could the starter relay be faulty do you think?

Also, you mentioned before that it should do Fuel Pump noises whenever I switch it on, it doesnt do that for some reason although the fuel pump does make the noises when using the TuneECU test.

Thanks again
The fuel pump should prime (pressurise the fuel rail) each time the iginition is switched on, then depressurise approx 30-60s after the ignition is turned off. The fact it works when the TuneECU test is run tells you that the fuel pump relay and all connections to it are ok.

The lights not dipping means the ECU is not switching the starter relay but the fuse used for the headlights and starter solenoid (front fuse box #6) is ok.

As I don't have my wiring notes with me I'll redraw the starter circuit from the service manual to refresh my memory and sort out the test points.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on November 13, 2021, 11:47:54 AM
I suspect that the ECU is being inhibited from starting the bike and the problem will be to determine what is causing this problem.

As a simple test for this, if you measure the voltage on Pin 2 of the Starter Circuit Relay, it should go to 12V when you press the starter button. If not, the ECU is being inhibited from starting the bike. The voltage on Pin 2 not only powers the starter motor via the Starter Relay but also switches off power to the headlight.

If the ECU is being inhibited, the challenge will then be to determine what is causing this inhibition. At the moment, I think we have ruled out the immobiliser. However, the obvious things will need to be ruled out, including the clutch switch, sidestand switch and tip-over (TO) sensor which I think can all be checked via TuneECU.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on November 13, 2021, 12:10:55 PM
*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
I suspect that the ECU is being inhibited from starting the bike and the problem will be to determine what is causing this problem.

As a simple test for this, if you measure the voltage on Pin 2 of the Starter Circuit Relay, it should go to 12V when you press the starter button. If not, the ECU is being inhibited from starting the bike. The voltage on Pin 2 not only powers the starter motor via the Starter Relay but also switches off power to the headlight.

If the ECU is being inhibited, the challenge will then be to determine what is causing this inhibition. At the moment, I think we have ruled out the immobiliser. However, the obvious things will need to be ruled out, including the clutch switch, sidestand switch and tip-over (TO) sensor which I think can all be checked via TuneECU.

Thanks Man.

Clutch Switch and Start button are confirmed to work in Tune ECU. The side stand only comes in to play if its in gear IIRC. I cant find a reference to the TO sensor in TuneECU.

Do you know what colour the wires are that go in to the starter relay, and which one is pin 2? I'll test that now.

Thanks again

Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on November 13, 2021, 12:18:11 PM
I think Ive got it, looking at this wiring diagram https://i.imgur.com/MP07lFr.jpg, its the only relay with 5 points (rather than 4 for the others), its the yellow wire. Do I do this test with the relay plugged in?
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on November 13, 2021, 12:32:03 PM
Just tested and there is no power from the yellow / black wire when I hold the clutch and press the start button (with the relay unplugged)
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on November 13, 2021, 02:05:00 PM
At face value, that would imply that the ECU is being inhibited; that is, it isn't getting all the signals or inputs it needs before it can allow the bike to start. The challenge is to work out what it is missing :084:

I doubt that the TO sensor or fall detection switch is the cause of the problem but it would be well to rule it out. It's mounted near the relays but at the moment I'm trying to work out how it works so that it can say how to test it. I was sure TuneECU listed it as one of the sensors but I'd have to check.

Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: grizzlybear on November 13, 2021, 02:11:12 PM
BTW the `fall  detection  ` switch is located under the rear rack, not by the relays. Probably my only contribution to this thread   :152:

(https://photos-cdn.tiger800.co.uk/IMG_20211113_142007.jpg)
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: characticus on November 13, 2021, 03:01:10 PM
Fault code data below is for 2018 bikes but may still be applicable. From this I'd expect to see a fault code generated if the ECM is not happy with input from fall detection switch. Maybe someone with service manual for earlier bike could confirm.

P1631 Fall detection circuit short circuit to ground

P1632 Fall detection circuit short circuit to battery Voltage
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: grizzlybear on November 13, 2021, 03:21:20 PM
Same fault code 👍
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on November 13, 2021, 04:03:14 PM
I'm still trying to work out how the fall detection sensor works. When activated after the bike has tipped more than 65 degs, I would not expect the ECU to generate a fault code in response but simply to disable the bike's engine from running.

I am assuming Pin 5 on the sensor provides the input voltage to the ECU going from V1 under normal conditions to V2 when the bike has tipped. It's likely the fault codes are only generated when the sensor electronics have developed a fault.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on November 13, 2021, 04:08:43 PM
Ive undone the fall detection sensor from the bike, turned the bike on with the sensor at all oriontations and it doesnt throw out any codes. I cant get the plug out of it to see if it throws out any error codes with it disconnected.

Another thing ive just noticed, when running the Techometer (speedo) test though tuneECU, it doesnt actually light up the bell symbol on the dash. Could a blown bell bulb/LED be the cause of it not starting do you think?
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on November 13, 2021, 04:43:57 PM
The ECU communicates with the dash via the Can-Bus - I doubt if a failed warning light would be communicated back to the ECU!

However, I've just connected up TuneECU to my bike (again) and my Android version does provide an indication of the state of the Fall Detection Sensor - the indication is grayed out and I assume it goes to green if the sensor has been triggered by tipping the bike over by more than 65 degs.

It would be worth checking in the Win version of TuneECU if this sensor is actually in the List? If it is, this would save a lot of hassle in terms of trying to work out whether the sensor is working properly.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on November 13, 2021, 05:03:24 PM
MegaChops: I believe that if you unplug the Fall Detection Sensor, the bike should normally be able to start and the only effect would be a fault code and the engine management light lighting up. Might be worth a try to see what happens :084:
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on November 13, 2021, 05:38:41 PM
*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
It would be worth checking in the Win version of TuneECU if this sensor is actually in the List? If it is, this would save a lot of hassle in terms of trying to work out whether the sensor is working properly.

No, its not in the sensor list in the windows version all all.

*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
MegaChops: I believe that if you unplug the Fall Detection Sensor, the bike should normally be able to start and the only effect would be a fault code and the engine management light lighting up. Might be worth a try to see what happens :084:

Got the bugger off, took a lot of grunt work. She doesnt start and there is a Fall detection circuit error code in TuneECU
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on November 13, 2021, 05:44:54 PM
Did you find the Fall Detector Sensor in the TuneECU sensor list? If the sensor is working correctly, you should get a few volts at most on Pin 5 which, I believe, will rise to a much higher voltage <12 V if the sensor is tipped to greater than 65 degs. The sensor is probably ok but ideally still needs to be ruled out.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on November 13, 2021, 05:54:13 PM
*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
Did you find the Fall Detector Sensor in the TuneECU sensor list? If the sensor is working correctly, you should get a few volts at most on Pin 5 which, I believe, will rise to a much higher voltage <12 V if the sensor is tipped to greater than 65 degs. The sensor is probably ok but ideally still needs to be ruled out.

Its not in the list on windows unfortunately, though if the bike should normally start with it disconnected, i would assume it should be ok?
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: T800XC on November 13, 2021, 05:58:21 PM
*Originally Posted by MegaChops [+]
Its not in the list on windows unfortunately, though if the bike should normally start with it disconnected, i would assume it should be ok?
According to the TuneECU instructions, the fall detection sensor indication is shown in the rev counter window next to the number 1 with the double triangle that looks like a hazard warning symbol.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on November 13, 2021, 06:07:53 PM
*Originally Posted by T800XC [+]
According to the TuneECU instructions, the fall detection sensor indication is shown in the rev counter window next to the number 1 with the double triangle that looks like a hazard warning symbol.

Ah, in which case, its not lit

(https://photos-cdn.tiger800.co.uk/Untitled.png)

Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: T800XC on November 13, 2021, 08:49:31 PM
The diagram below might help to trace the wiring for the starting circuit.

There's a 12V supply from fuse #4 in the rear fusebox that feeds one side of the contacts on the main ECM relay. The output of this passes through the alarm connector to the starter switch.

The output of the starter switch, when pressed, sends this 12V signal to one side of the coil for the starter relay and also to pin A17 on ECM Connector A.

If this signal is detected by the ECM when the starter switch is pressed, the ECM should provide a return path (switched 0V) for the starter relay coil via pin B07 on ECM Connector B.

If the starter relay successfully turns on it should provide power to the starter solenoid and ultimately the starter motor.

(https://photos-cdn.tiger800.co.uk/Tiger-800-Starting--Charging-Circuit.jpg)



*Originally Posted by D6864 [+]
It won't start without the headlights as they are part of the starting circuit, fingers crossed luck changing the bulbs will get it going
I've read this before but there's nothing I can see in any of the wiring diagrams that would indicate how blown headlights can affect the starting of the bike, which puzzles me because I 'think' I've seen it happen. I need to check this when I get back home next week, if only for my own sanity. I've got my virtual 800 on my desk but I've also got a full 800 wiring loom so I can trace some wires to see if there's another omission from the service manual's wiring diagram that I've not spotted. A feedback line to the ECM from the headlight relay would be one way to implement this, but last time I looked I managed to account for all connections to the ECM.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on November 13, 2021, 10:26:54 PM
Thanks so much for this.  :493:  :152:

I'm going to print it out and test each connection 1 by 1 tomorrow. I'll test each of the relays too by putting 12v through them and see if they are switching correctly.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: chuckxc on November 14, 2021, 05:15:26 AM
Headlight/Starter interaction---on my 2012 XC the starter relay uses it's "normally closed" position to connect the headlight power. Then, when starting, that connection changes to drop out the headlight and  the "normally open"  position activates to connect the starter. This way the starter motor get a greater share of the battery.
The confusion about the headlight being on as  a necessary condition for starting probably came about because typically a person might remove the fuse to the headlights to power down the headlights when working on other circuits on the bike. That fuse also supplies the starter relay voltage.
Newer models do this function using the CAN bus and ECU
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on November 14, 2021, 01:52:44 PM
MegaChops: I would start by checking the operation of the Starter Circuit Relay (#14 in diagram) which is supposed to switch the headlight power, as ChuckXC says, to the Starter Relay and the Starter Motor. I got it around the wrong way round previously and the correct configuration is with Pin 1 at 12V and Pin 2 at ground in order to activate the relay.

The 12V will come from pressing the starter button which is connected to Pin 1 on the Starter Circuit Relay. However, what needs to be determined is whether Pin 2 is permanently connected to ground through Pin B07 on the ECU or whether the ECU uses this connection to inhibit operation of the relay; for example, by applying 12V or an open circuit to Pin 2.

If the Starter Circuit Relay is being activated by the Starter Button then the headlights should switch off which I assume they are not doing.

I would therefore unplug the Starter Circuit Relay and connect power to Pins 1 & 2 and then check it switches Pin 3 to Pin 5 and back again to Pin 4 using an Ohm meter showing it is operating correctly as a double throw relay (note the diagram shows it as a single throw relay with no Pin 4).

If the relay is working ok and you get 12V on Pin 1 when you press the starter button then it looks as though the ECU is disabling the relay via Pin 2 unless there is something wrong with the wiring. I would check the voltage on Pin 2 but if it an open circuit you will then need to be a bit careful how you test for that and not by using an Ohm meter.

Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on November 14, 2021, 07:16:47 PM
Ok, big day of testing and from what I can tell, it looks like the wiring is OK.

Ive tested all of the relays and they all seems good. Starter relay alternates beween continuity with pins 3, 4 & 5 like it should when power is ran through pins 1 & 2. It also gives an audible click when testing (but doesnt when its hooked up to my bike)

Ive checked the wiring connection from the ECU (B07, B15, A17 & A19) to the relays and they all read good.

I'm getting voltage 13V at the starter relay pin 1 when I press the starter & clutch, so it does indeed look like the ECU is preventing the starter relay by controlling the ground connection on pin B07. I'm also getting a constant 13V at Pin 3, so thats looking OK.

Any ideas where to go from here?

Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on November 14, 2021, 07:50:23 PM
I think we need to go with the ECU not allowing the engine to start for teh time being. We have ruled out the more obvious suspects including the Fall Detection Sensor but, I for one, will need to sit down and see if I can identify another possible suspect that can then be tested. 

However, if the problem can't be isolated then you may have to take the bike to a Triumph dealer who I am sure will have the sophisticated diagnostics software necessary to identify what is going on with the ECU.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on November 14, 2021, 08:48:53 PM
*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
I think we need to go with the ECU not allowing the engine to start for teh time being. We have ruled out the more obvious suspects including the Fall Detection Sensor but, I for one, will need to sit down and see if I can identify another possible suspect that can then be tested. 

However, if the problem can't be isolated then you may have to take the bike to a Triumph dealer who I am sure will have the sophisticated diagnostics software necessary to identify what is going on with the ECU.

Thanks man. I really appreciate the help!
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: chuckxc on November 14, 2021, 09:40:18 PM
From what you guys have deducted, it would appear the ECU is not pulling its pin B07 to ground to enable the starting circuit.
I suspect that is a safeguard function of the ECU so that the starter circuit is inoperable if the engine is running.
 
So a good background question would be, what sensor/s does the ECU use to know when the engine is running.

A test to get the starter turning over, and verify this hypothesis, if done carefully with thought, would be to temporarily remove starter relay 45. (The headlight will not be on after you remove the relay.) Then make up a pushbutton with two wires, and temporarily connect pin 3 (purple wire +12v) and pin 5 (white/red to solenoid) of the now empty relay socket 45 long enough to power the starter solenoid. But make sure its safe, ie in neutral, back wheel off ground, because you will be overriding the safeguards.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on November 14, 2021, 10:00:03 PM
*Originally Posted by chuckxc [+]
From what you guys have deducted, it would appear the ECU is not pulling its pin B07 to ground to enable the starting circuit.
I suspect that is a safeguard function of the ECU so that the starter circuit is inoperable if the engine is running.
 
So a good background question would be, what sensor/s does the ECU use to know when the engine is running.

A test to get the starter turning over, and verify this hypothesis, if done carefully with thought, would be to temporarily remove starter relay 45. (The headlight will not be on after you remove the relay.) Then make up a pushbutton with two wires, and temporarily connect pin 3 (purple wire +12v) and pin 5 (white/red to solenoid) of the now empty relay socket 45 long enough to power the starter solenoid. But make sure its safe, ie in neutral, back wheel off ground, because you will be overriding the safeguards.

Just tried this, I achieved it by connecting pin 2 on the start relay (whilst the relay was still connected) to negative / earth. The bike turns over but doesnt start. I suspect its because either the fuel pump hasnt done the priming sequence or shes not sparking.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: chuckxc on November 15, 2021, 12:19:27 AM
OK. Good result.

I haven't read back through this full post so apologies if I missed something, but....

Troubleshooting the reason pin ECU B07 doesn't enable the 0V output, and thus ECU preventing starting...

1) Did you go through the interlock circuit to prevent starting ( and thus not enabling 0V on ECU pin B07) of:
clutch in, sidestand up in gear or, in neutral?
2) Fallover switch?
3)alarm jumper bypass?


Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: T800XC on November 15, 2021, 01:01:23 AM
*Originally Posted by MegaChops [+]
Ive undone the fall detection sensor from the bike, turned the bike on with the sensor at all oriontations and it doesnt throw out any codes. I cant get the plug out of it to see if it throws out any error codes with it disconnected.
Reading back through all of this, I'm not sure we've yet eliminated the fall detection switch. Did you check the position symbol in TuneECU with all orientations of the sensor/switch? Remember to look at the mounting orientation of the switch under the seat and consider which way constitutes a sideways fall of the bike.

Check the voltage at pin 5 of the switch (pink & blue wire) with respect to pin 6 (pink & black wire) for all switch orientations.

Finally check the voltage between pins 4 & 6 of the switch. It should be 5V but if less than 4.8V there could be something dragging down the 5V sensor supply from the ECM.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on November 15, 2021, 08:06:30 AM
Megachops: Can you please recap what is happening with the fuel pump - normally, it should power up each time you switch on the ignition? The reason for asking is that your TuneECU screen shots don't appear to show a green light next to the fuel pump.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on November 15, 2021, 11:13:31 AM
The other thing I notice from the last TuneECU screen shot is that it is still showing only 11.3V. If that is correct, I would fully charge up the battery just in case the low voltage is causing a problem :084:
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on November 15, 2021, 11:20:47 AM
Also, I apologise in advance for asking this, but I spent a day recently trying to sort out a Tiger 800 starting problem (remotely) only to find that the owner had inadvertently knocked the engine kill switch without realising it :157: I'm sure that this is not the case here but it is always worth checking this is not the case.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: Stevie.P on November 15, 2021, 11:23:52 AM
*Originally Posted by T800XC [+]
Reading back through all of this, I'm not sure we've yet eliminated the fall detection switch. Did you check the position symbol in TuneECU with all orientations of the sensor/switch? Remember to look at the mounting orientation of the switch under the seat and consider which way constitutes a sideways fall of the bike.

I've been following this but it is one of those topics I'd understand more if a). I was doing it b). I had or ever used TuneECU ..... so I didn't expect to contribute but ...
Tied in with the above suggestion to check the 'Fall Detection' switch in various positions this does tie in with an earlier observation I maybe should have queried in post #134 from T800XC regarding the light next to the #1, in that I wasn't clear if the light should be on, i.e green, to indicate switch good, or on to indicate a faulty switch. However if the above test is carried out and causes a light in some orientation that should hopefully indicate the switch is working (though maybe not in designed orientation?).  :027:
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on November 15, 2021, 11:35:44 AM
On my Tiger 800, the fall detection indicator in TuneECU is also grayed out and I assume it would go to red when a fall is detected? It would be better if TuneECU showed either a green or red indication :084:
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on November 15, 2021, 12:37:27 PM
*Originally Posted by chuckxc [+]
OK. Good result.

1) Did you go through the interlock circuit to prevent starting ( and thus not enabling 0V on ECU pin B07) of:
clutch in, sidestand up in gear or, in neutral?
2) Fallover switch?
3)alarm jumper bypass?

1) Yes, Ive done the normal startup procedure, bike is in netural, clutch in and pressed starter. Ive also tried with the side stand up
2) Just tested again, seems ok.
3) Checked that, all the wire jumpers are in place

*Originally Posted by T800XC [+]
Reading back through all of this, I'm not sure we've yet eliminated the fall detection switch. Did you check the position symbol in TuneECU with all orientations of the sensor/switch? Remember to look at the mounting orientation of the switch under the seat and consider which way constitutes a sideways fall of the bike.

Just tested this in TuneECU and it seems to be functioning as expected, I get the symbol go red on a simulated tip over on both sides

(https://photos-cdn.tiger800.co.uk/2c44e6b881fa9d1cf.png)

*Originally Posted by T800XC [+]
Check the voltage at pin 5 of the switch (pink & blue wire) with respect to pin 6 (pink & black wire) for all switch orientations.

It difficult to do this one, as once its plugged in, i cant get the pins to test it. There isnt any access from the back of the plug. I can splice the wires to get a reading if you think its needed?

*Originally Posted by T800XC [+]
Finally check the voltage between pins 4 & 6 of the switch. It should be 5V but if less than 4.8V there could be something dragging down the 5V sensor supply from the ECM.

I'm getting 5.2V with the sensor removed.

*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
The other thing I notice from the last TuneECU screen shot is that it is still showing only 11.3V. If that is correct, I would fully charge up the battery just in case the low voltage is causing a problem :084:

I reused the previous screenie, but the battery has been replaced, was previously at 13v with still the same symptoms, now its at 12.3V (as Ive been doing so many diags).

*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
Megachops: Can you please recap what is happening with the fuel pump - normally, it should power up each time you switch on the ignition? The reason for asking is that your TuneECU screen shots don't appear to show a green light next to the fuel pump.

The fuel pump is not doing its thing when I turn the ignition on. When I first connect the battery and turn the ignition on, I do get a noise but I think thats the stepper motor rather than the fuel pump. It doesnt happen on subsequent ignition turn ons (unless I disconnect and reconnect the battery). The fuel pump test does work in TuneECU, and I can hear the noise it would normally make whilst this test is running.

*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
Also, I apologise in advance for asking this, but I spent a day recently trying to sort out a Tiger 800 starting problem (remotely) only to find that the owner had inadvertently knocked the engine kill switch without realising it :157: I'm sure that this is not the case here but it is always worth checking this is not the case.

Haha, ive done this myself in the past :) One of the first things I check now
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on November 15, 2021, 01:33:21 PM
What about the fuel pump indicator in TuneECU not showing green? If correct, I assume this is showing visually that the ECU startup routine is being inhibited and, until you get a green light, the bike is not going to start :084: I will double check with my version of TuneECU to see what this shows.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on November 15, 2021, 02:04:53 PM
Surprisingly, with the engine off, the fuel pump relay was grayed out in TuneECU and only went green when the engine started. At face value, this looks as though the engine was started with the fuel pump not being on which I could understand if the fuel rail was already pressurised and the ECU had someway of detecting this which I don't think it has :084:
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: D6864 on November 15, 2021, 02:33:29 PM
Try energising both the starter and fuel pump relays at the same time to see if that gets it running.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on November 15, 2021, 03:07:54 PM
Megachops: early on in this thread you said that some wires got very hot, presumably because the instrument dash or ECU was being fried at the time. Did you ever work out which wires they were? The thought that came to mind was whether the wiring harness or a connector had been damaged and this was the cause of the present non-starting?
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on November 15, 2021, 04:28:10 PM
*Originally Posted by D6864 [+]
Try energising both the starter and fuel pump relays at the same time to see if that gets it running.

From looking at the diagram, the ECU provides a +12v to the relay to start the fuel pump (as opposed to the ground for the starter). Do you think I should just connect pins 3 & 5 with the relay unplugged to do this?

*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
Megachops: early on in this thread you said that some wires got very hot, presumably because the instrument dash or ECU was being fried at the time. Did you ever work out which wires they were? The thought that came to mind was whether the wiring harness or a connector had been damaged and this was the cause of the present non-starting?

I didnt work it out, when I got it back from the garage, the ECU itself was getting hot. I couldnt feel any of the wires themselves hot
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: T800XC on November 15, 2021, 04:34:12 PM
*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
Megachops: early on in this thread you said that some wires got very hot, presumably because the instrument dash or ECU was being fried at the time. Did you ever work out which wires they were? The thought that came to mind was whether the wiring harness or a connector had been damaged and this was the cause of the present non-starting?

More than likely it was the one shown in this photo where the PCB was damaged...

https://www.tiger800.co.uk/index.php/topic,30120.msg322277.html#msg322277

I'll need to take another look at the ECU's pinout to identify which pin is was.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: Georgeinabz on November 15, 2021, 04:50:52 PM
*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
Megachops: early on in this thread you said that some wires got very hot, presumably because the instrument dash or ECU was being fried at the time. Did you ever work out which wires they were? The thought that came to mind was whether the wiring harness or a connector had been damaged and this was the cause of the present non-starting?

This line of enquiry is worth a shot , you have a 10 year old wiring loom, wires these days are very thin  , has there been chaffing at points in the frame or headstock that has shorted out some wires , Iím afraid I  would recommend disconnect everything and ohms test all wires , time consuming but only your time wasted.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: D6864 on November 15, 2021, 05:02:39 PM
*Originally Posted by MegaChops [+]
From looking at the diagram, the ECU provides a +12v to the relay to start the fuel pump (as opposed to the ground for the starter). Do you think I should just connect pins 3 & 5 with the relay unplugged to do this?

That should work, fuel pump relay pin 3 is permanent 12V so the pump will run all the time 3 & 5 are connected.

Normally, the ECU pulls pin B29, connected to relay pin 2, to ground to run the pump. Relay pin 1 is ignition switched 12V via the kill switch and alarm connector.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on November 15, 2021, 06:24:23 PM
This is the way I see the situation at the moment:

1. The ECU is being inhibited from allowing the bike to be started - at the very minimum it is stopping the Starter Circuit Relay from being energised which means the engine will not crank.

2. Most of the reasons that might cause this ECU state would be due to a sensor problem but these would, in general, result in a DTC and a MIL warning  - there are no DTCs and so a sensor problem would seem to be unlikely

3. Another reason for this ECU state might be due to a safety interlock function. However, only the clutch switch part of this interlock function is relevant if the bike is in N and this seems to be working.

4. The only other cause of this ECU state that I can think would be associated with the kill switch. Even though the kill switch may be in the RUN position does not necessarily mean that the 12V from it is then getting through to the ECM on Pin A19, especially since it passes through the alarm jumper block.  Therefore, the voltage on Pin A19 needs to be verified possibly by unplugging ECM connector A.

If the latter is not the cause of the problem, it is very difficult to think where else the problem could lie and maybe it will then be time to take it to a Triumph dealer :157:

Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on November 15, 2021, 07:03:37 PM
*Originally Posted by D6864 [+]
That should work, fuel pump relay pin 3 is permanent 12V so the pump will run all the time 3 & 5 are connected.

Normally, the ECU pulls pin B29, connected to relay pin 2, to ground to run the pump. Relay pin 1 is ignition switched 12V via the kill switch and alarm connector.

Ive done this, fuel pump does its thing, grounded starter relay and it cranked but she still didnt start.  :003:

*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
This is the way I see the situation at the moment:

1. The ECU is being inhibited from allowing the bike to be started - at the very minimum it is stopping the Starter Circuit Relay from being energised which means the engine will not crank.

2. Most of the reasons that might cause this ECU state would be due to a sensor problem but these would, in general, result in a DTC and a MIL warning  - there are no DTCs and so a sensor problem would seem to be unlikely

3. Another reason for this ECU state might be due to a safety interlock function. However, only the clutch switch part of this interlock function is relevant if the bike is in N and this seems to be working.

4. The only other cause of this ECU state that I can think would be associated with the kill switch. Even though the kill switch may be in the RUN position does not necessarily mean that the 12V from it is then getting through to the ECM on Pin A19, especially since it passes through the alarm jumper block.  Therefore, the voltage on Pin A19 needs to be verified possibly by unplugging ECM connector A.

If the latter is not the cause of the problem, it is very difficult to think where else the problem could lie and maybe it will then be time to take it to a Triumph dealer :157:

When I turn the kill switch off, the engine managment light goes off, so I'm sure its connecting to the ECU. I've just diconnected the ECU and tested A19 and it gets the 13V when the kill switch is on (and goes when its off), it is sounding like it'll need to go to the dealership  :003:

My only worry is that I only get 30 days to return the ECU / Ignition if its a duff  set and I'm unlikely to have enough funds for this side of christmas for dealership diagnostics (I hear its nearly £100 ph)
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: Georgeinabz on November 15, 2021, 07:54:31 PM
My only worry is that I only get 30 days to return the ECU / Ignition if its a duff  set and I'm unlikely to have enough funds for this side of christmas for dealership diagnostics (I hear its nearly £100 ph)

I strongly advise against this now , you have poked about and they do not take kindly to that ,remember they have a duty of care and also to comply with consumer law on their repairs.
This  will result in the dismantling almost everything you have poked at over the past few weeks. You will likely be handing over a blank cheque while they  pull your trousers down on this one.
As I said back to basics , what caused the original problem, check the wiring loom , itís time consuming but fairly straightforward and cheap for starters .
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: chuckxc on November 15, 2021, 08:45:01 PM
You guys have made a lot of progress in troubleshooting and eliminating possible causes. Maybe one more question.....in you last post you were able to get the fuel pump running and the starter cranking.

So, airOK/fuelOK/spark??
 Is there a spark at the plugs when you do this all-up test?
 
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on November 16, 2021, 06:25:04 AM
I think as a Forum, we have got Megachops to try every conceivable test possible to try to establish why the ECU won't crank the engine without success. The difficulty is that we have no means available to interrogate the ECU directly and get it to tell us why it has a problem - that is what a Triumph dealership might be able to do with their diagnostics software.

I think it is a real possibility that the replacement ECU has an electronic fault and, if so, the bike is never going to start. It may well be that taking it to a Triumph Dealership will only serve to confirm this and cost at least £100 plus the cost of transporting the bike there.

It is a difficult decision but the best way forward might be to return the ECU and ignition system back under warranty and look for another set.



Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: grizzlybear on November 16, 2021, 08:37:46 AM
How about asking Muddysump to do a diagnostic check, I assume he has the same software as triumph.
I know he fully booked up, but he is based up north so might be able to do a quick check :084:

https://www.muddysump.com/
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: Georgeinabz on November 16, 2021, 08:50:15 AM
*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
I think as a Forum, we have got Megachops to try every conceivable test possible to try to establish why the ECU won't crank the engine without success. The difficulty is that we have no means available to interrogate the ECU directly and get it to tell us why it has a problem - that is what a Triumph dealership might be able to do with their diagnostics software.

I think it is a real possibility that the replacement ECU has an electronic fault and, if so, the bike is never going to start. It may well be that taking it to a Triumph Dealership will only serve to confirm this and cost at least £100 plus the cost of transporting the bike there.

It is a difficult decision but the best way forward might be to return the ECU and ignition system back under warranty and look for another set.

Just put back the ecu now and hunt for another , I am almost certain the dealer will flag this up , not because itís maybe faulty but because the the way diagnostics work.
The dealer diagnositics is not really more helpful than Tigertool or Dealertool , other than flashing ecuís or coding keys or in later models coding accessories. The bike comes with a set  of error codes however these only point you in a certain direction  , just because a sensor throws up a code doesnít mean thatís the problem , as Iíve said a broken wire wonít be pointed , the diagnostic machine is never going to say ďoh look youíve got a broken wire or crusty connectorĒ go any where near a main dealer, and if they decide to look at it , they a going to empty your bank account sharpish.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: D6864 on November 16, 2021, 10:03:54 AM
@T800XC would your test bench show if MegaChops' new ECU and ignition set would work on a fault free bike?
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: T800XC on November 16, 2021, 02:49:58 PM
*Originally Posted by D6864 [+]
@T800XC would your test bench show if MegaChops' new ECU and ignition set would work on a fault free bike?
I've just got back home after nearly a week away so I'll try to take a look at this later.


*Originally Posted by Georgeinabz [+]
...The dealer diagnositics is not really more helpful than Tigertool or Dealertool , other than flashing ecuís or coding keys or in later models coding accessories...
That's about right. The TriTun diagnostic software can read the full range of available sensor signals, voltages and status etc so it 'may' pickup something that Dealertool or TuneECU doesn't. The version available to the public can't program new keys or do some of the other coding features, but it's very good.

However, access to the software costs about £36 per day and requires a very expensive interface lead. The plus side is that I have such a lead, and I could lend it out if required, but due to its cost it would need insured postage at about £14 each way the last time I checked. This all starts to add up.


Now that I'm back at my desk I'll see what I can figure out between my virtual 800 and spare wiring loom. The downside is that because my V-800 only has limited connections I have about 18 DTCs each time I switch it on. I think connecting it to the full loom might help, but I might have to see if I can bypass the immobiliser as I don't have an ignition set.

If all else fails I could pop round to see a mate and start taking his working 800 apart!
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on November 16, 2021, 07:32:39 PM
*Originally Posted by chuckxc [+]
You guys have made a lot of progress in troubleshooting and eliminating possible causes. Maybe one more question.....in you last post you were able to get the fuel pump running and the starter cranking.

So, airOK/fuelOK/spark??
 Is there a spark at the plugs when you do this all-up test?

There is no spark

*Originally Posted by Georgeinabz [+]
Just put back the ecu now and hunt for another , I am almost certain the dealer will flag this up , not because itís maybe faulty but because the the way diagnostics work.
The dealer diagnositics is not really more helpful than Tigertool or Dealertool , other than flashing ecuís or coding keys or in later models coding accessories. The bike comes with a set  of error codes however these only point you in a certain direction  , just because a sensor throws up a code doesnít mean thatís the problem , as Iíve said a broken wire wonít be pointed , the diagnostic machine is never going to say ďoh look youíve got a broken wire or crusty connectorĒ go any where near a main dealer, and if they decide to look at it , they a going to empty your bank account sharpish.

Ive just been through all of the wiring harness that I can get to, and everything checks out. Ive even traced it all back to the ECU

*Originally Posted by T800XC [+]
I've just got back home after nearly a week away so I'll try to take a look at this later.

That's about right. The TriTun diagnostic software can read the full range of available sensor signals, voltages and status etc so it 'may' pickup something that Dealertool or TuneECU doesn't. The version available to the public can't program new keys or do some of the other coding features, but it's very good.

However, access to the software costs about £36 per day and requires a very expensive interface lead. The plus side is that I have such a lead, and I could lend it out if required, but due to its cost it would need insured postage at about £14 each way the last time I checked. This all starts to add up.


Now that I'm back at my desk I'll see what I can figure out between my virtual 800 and spare wiring loom. The downside is that because my V-800 only has limited connections I have about 18 DTCs each time I switch it on. I think connecting it to the full loom might help, but I might have to see if I can bypass the immobiliser as I don't have an ignition set.

If all else fails I could pop round to see a mate and start taking his working 800 apart!

Thanks man!  :493:
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on November 17, 2021, 07:01:22 AM
T800XC: What seems clear at the moment is that (as a minimum) the ECU is not energising the Starter Circuit Relay - it looks as though this must be due to ECM Pin B07 not being switched to GRD by the ECU.

Either the ECU is failing to get to that point in its programming because of a sensor problem or some configuration issue, or there is a driver fault in the ECU that is causing Pin 07 not to be switched to GRD.

It is clearly possible to command the ECU to activate some of its output drivers, such as for the fuel pump or cooling fan, but is it possible to command the ECU to manually control the state of Pin B07? If it was then that would better enable the exact nature of the current problem to be determined:084:

Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: chuckxc on November 17, 2021, 11:54:17 AM
After reading back over  this post  there is no doubt the troubleshooting and testing has been very thorough and with the repairs made and possible sources of faults eliminated in my view it is likely the problem is out of our reach and internal to the ECU or else incompatibility with the ECU/ ignition/bike.
Even by overriding some of the interlock functions such as starter circuit and fuel pump the ECU will still not actuate the coils and injectors indicating it remains in-operable.
Unfortunately, IMO the suggestions to get dealer support or replacement of the ECU might be the only way out at this stage.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on November 19, 2021, 09:18:00 PM
Hey All,

I've been through the remainder of the harness / electrical and am sad to say I've not found a fault anywhere. It would seem as mentioned, it is some sort of ECU incompatibility issue or fault. Unfortunately, there aren't any more ECU / Ignition sets for my bike on eBay, so looks like I'm not going to get a replacement very easy. Once I get one, if that then fails it's either going to be a dealer / sell her for spares.

I just wanted to say a massive thank you to everyone who has helped me get this far, especially T800XC who has gone out of his way for me. You are all absolute legends.

Absolute worst case scenario, if I have to sell her for parts in spring (when bike prices rise), I'll be spending the majority of next year saving for a new (to me) tiger at the end of 2022 (when winter price hits). I absolutely love this bike, and with all the diagnostics I've been doing, I feel I know this bike inside and out.

Thanks again for everything all
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: chuckxc on November 20, 2021, 02:39:59 AM
 :028: That's probably the best decision in this case. Your 2011 model, even if running, isn't going to get much of a sale price or trade-in, and other problems might start popping up at that age.  Selling for parts could give a reasonable return. You could look for a well-maintained used Tiger post-2018 model with the TFT and save on the new bike cost.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: grizzlybear on November 20, 2021, 12:55:45 PM
Sorry to hear the sad news. At least you learnt how great our forum is
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: T800XC on November 20, 2021, 01:01:45 PM
*Originally Posted by MegaChops [+]
...Unfortunately, there aren't any more ECU / Ignition sets for my bike on eBay, so looks like I'm not going to get a replacement very easy. Once I get one, if that then fails it's either going to be a dealer / sell her for spares.
Have you spoken to a local dealer and explained the situation with your current setup?

I'd say that's worth doing to at least get an idea from them on what the fault might be and how much they'd charge to put it right, in case we've missed something. Asking their advice doesn't cost anything.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: Georgeinabz on November 20, 2021, 08:18:02 PM
Or you could buy another road going 2011 Tiger and start swapping over bits to get clarification.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on November 20, 2021, 10:20:56 PM
*Originally Posted by T800XC [+]
Have you spoken to a local dealer and explained the situation with your current setup?

I'd say that's worth doing to at least get an idea from them on what the fault might be and how much they'd charge to put it right, in case we've missed something. Asking their advice doesn't cost anything.

I've reached out to Team Roberts last Tuesday to get a estimate on a diagnostic via their website but they didnt get back to me. I'll follow up a call in the week, see what they say.

*Originally Posted by Georgeinabz [+]
Or you could buy another road going 2011 Tiger and start swapping over bits to get clarification.

I wish I had the money to do that, I spent 4.5k on this bike last year and its the most I've ever spent on bike in my 15 years of biking. It took me a year and a half to save up for this after my Tiger 955i got stolen prevously
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on November 21, 2021, 07:50:07 AM
MegaChjops. I think we've considered everything electronic/electrical we can think of to try to solve the problem. However, your Tiger 800 is a non-ABS model and I am wondering whether the ECU needs to be configured for this since the same ECU was used for both the ABS and non-ABS models. At the very least, it might be worth asking the Triumph dealer about it. 
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: T800XC on November 21, 2021, 09:05:56 AM
*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
MegaChjops. I think we've considered everything electronic/electrical we can think of to try to solve the problem. However, your Tiger 800 is a non-ABS model and I am wondering whether the ECU needs to be configured for this since the same ECU was used for both the ABS and non-ABS models. At the very least, it might be worth asking the Triumph dealer about it.

Certainly worth checking and can be done online using the VIN.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on November 21, 2021, 11:04:44 AM
*Originally Posted by T800XC [+]
Certainly worth checking and can be done online using the VIN.

Ive tried checking online and I cant see to do it, the VIN on the ECU is "SMTTRE11B8B485933" i think

(https://photos-cdn.tiger800.co.uk/s-l16005275ecc429e3a636.jpg)
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: T800XC on November 21, 2021, 12:12:46 PM
*Originally Posted by MegaChops [+]
Ive tried checking online and I cant see to do it, the VIN on the ECU is "SMTTRE11B8B485933" i think
That's listed as "2011 TIGER 800XC A1", i.e. non-ABS.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: Georgeinabz on November 21, 2021, 08:33:37 PM
*Originally Posted by MegaChops [+]
I've reached out to Team Roberts last Tuesday to get a estimate on a diagnostic via their website but they didnt get back to me. I'll follow up a call in the week, see what they say.

I wish I had the money to do that, I spent 4.5k on this bike last year and its the most I've ever spent on bike in my 15 years of biking. It took me a year and a half to save up for this after my Tiger 955i got stolen prevously

Sorry to hear that , I doubt Team Roberts will be to enthusiastic about the the job unless theyíre really quiet , to be fair most franchised dealers will deem your project not worth the hassle. Iíve been fortunate over the years buying bikes that theyíve never caused too much problems to date  , carbs & points although a pain sometimes have always been cheap to repair. Breaking might be the way to go.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: D6864 on November 21, 2021, 08:54:48 PM
I'd be happy to test your ECU and key on my 2012 non-ABS XC.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on November 21, 2021, 09:42:57 PM
*Originally Posted by D6864 [+]
I'd be happy to test your ECU and key on my 2012 non-ABS XC.

That would be brilliant! PM sent
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on November 21, 2021, 10:02:19 PM
*Originally Posted by T800XC [+]
That's listed as "2011 TIGER 800XC A1", i.e. non-ABS.

Balls, thought we might of figured it. Thanks for checking

*Originally Posted by Georgeinabz [+]
Sorry to hear that , I doubt Team Roberts will be to enthusiastic about the the job unless theyíre really quiet , to be fair most franchised dealers will deem your project not worth the hassle. Iíve been fortunate over the years buying bikes that theyíve never caused too much problems to date  , carbs & points although a pain sometimes have always been cheap to repair. Breaking might be the way to go.

Yeah, thats my worry. My 10 year old bike to them would be worth scrap, but to me its the world. Fingers crossed it doesnt get to me breaking

Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on November 22, 2021, 05:35:05 PM
MegaChops: Still looking for other possibilities to explain why your bike won't start and one of them is that the chip in the ignition key has failed. If you've got two keys and neither allows the bike to start then that would probably rule this out.

However, if you have only got one key (or have only tried one key so far) and the chip in it has failed then the immobiliser will not be able to read the code and the bike will not start. I've just simulated this by wrapping foil around the key fob which prevented the bike from starting and, more importantly, it didn't generate a fault code or an illuminated MIL to tell you what the problem was.

Unfortunately, if you do only have a single key then the only way to confirm that it is duff might be to switch to the old ignition set up and to get the ECU paired with it.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: T800XC on November 22, 2021, 05:58:39 PM
Using an ELM327 OBD device (such as for TigerTool or Dealertool) it's possible to monitor the CAN bus for the handshake between the ECU and immobiliser that will tell you whether the key was successfully read and the system unlocked.

I can post simple instructions for anyone who might be interested. Almost all you need to know is in the list of commands in the datasheet for the ELM327 chip.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on November 22, 2021, 06:45:18 PM
*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
MegaChops: Still looking for other possibilities to explain why your bike won't start and one of them is that the chip in the ignition key has failed. If you've got two keys and neither allows the bike to start then that would probably rule this out.

However, if you have only got one key (or have only tried one key so far) and the chip in it has failed then the immobiliser will not be able to read the code and the bike will not start. I've just simulated this by wrapping foil around the key fob which prevented the bike from starting and, more importantly, it didn't generate a fault code or an illuminated MIL to tell you what the problem was.

Unfortunately, if you do only have a single key then the only way to confirm that it is duff might be to switch to the old ignition set up and to get the ECU paired with it.

*Originally Posted by T800XC [+]
Using an ELM327 OBD device (such as for TigerTool or Dealertool) it's possible to monitor the CAN bus for the handshake between the ECU and immobiliser that will tell you whether the key was successfully read and the system unlocked.

I can post simple instructions for anyone who might be interested. Almost all you need to know is in the list of commands in the datasheet for the ELM327 chip.

I only have the one key that came with the ECU/Ignition set.

I've taken up D6864's kind offer to test the ECU & Igntion/key on his bike, and I've shipped them this morning on next day delivery. I'm kinda hoping he gets the same symptoms so I know its the ECU or ingition set.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on November 23, 2021, 06:30:51 AM
If the problem turns out to be a duff ignition key, I am not sure what the process would be to get a new set of keys. For example, is it actually possible to get a Triumph dealer to pair the ECU with a new set of ignition keys with different chip codes. Or is it possible just to provide the VIN (from the replacement ECU) and for Triumph to then be able to produce two new keys programmed for the chip code stored in the ECU which they can look up? I will be driving past my local Triumph dealer at about 9 am this morning and so will pop in and ask them the question since I am curious to know the answer :084:





Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on November 23, 2021, 09:27:20 AM
Popped into my local main Triumph dealer this morning to ask about replacement keys and came away non the wiser :157:

The issue appears to be whether the key code can be read from the ECU and then used to program a new set of keys. Obviously, the key code was supplied to most owners attached to their spare key but my Triumph dealer did not know the answer as to whether their diagnostics software could extract it from the ECU. The question probably needs to be asked of a more experienced Triumph main dealer.

If the dealer can't extract the code, I am sure there are people out there who can do this with a clever bit of Can-Bus programming.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: D6864 on November 23, 2021, 03:16:57 PM
Right, I have MegaChops' ECU, ignition switch and key and have done some testing on my bike. There's good news and bad news; my bike doesn't run with MegaChops' ECU either but I can reproduce the same behaviour with my ECU and, after reading and interpreting the service manual, I think I understand why.


The service manual is pretty vague and contradictory on the immobiliser system but as I now understand it, the key has to be paired with the immobiliser/TPMS module and the immobiliser/TPMS has to be paired with the ECU. If the key doesn't match with the immobiliser/TPMS then the immobiliser/TPMS to ECU check doesn't take place. I think this is what's happening:

Therefore, there are two options to fix it:

Can anyone suggest any further tests while I have MegaChops' ECU? I do have TuneECU and TigerTool available.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on November 23, 2021, 04:27:16 PM
My understanding is that the immobiliser is there simply to read the code from the key and passes this to the ECU via the Can-Bus. It is in the ECU that the code check is done and if this is not passed then the bike will not start. The immobiliser does not have the key code stored in it and so cannot carry out a separate check.

In Test 1, it would be interesting to know what the DTC logged is since the MIL is illuminated. I don't think this happened on MegaChops bike if I remember correctly.

In Test 2, the MIL is flashing because the key code does not match that stored in the ECU. DTC P1508 is probably logged.

In Test 3, since the MIL is not flashing, it would seem to imply that the ECU is not detecting a mismatched key possibly because MegaChops key is not working. Again, it would be interesting to know what DTC has been logged.

Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on November 23, 2021, 05:24:27 PM
Just looked at my Tiger and forgot that the MIL is illuminated before you start the engine and therefor probably no DTC's are being generated in Test 1 & 3. The conclusion would seem to be from D6864's tests is that MegaChops key is duff and that is why his bike will not start.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: D6864 on November 23, 2021, 05:48:32 PM
I should have said that the MIL is always on until the engine runs!

I'm sure the bike is reading MegaChops' key ok because it's presence changes the behaviour as expected, will confirm the mismatch DTC L0008 in the immobiliser with TigerTool.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on November 23, 2021, 05:56:19 PM
If MegaChops key is working, Test 3 should result in a code mismatch and a flashing MIL. It doesn't which suggests the immobiliser is not reading MegaChops key code.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: T800XC on November 23, 2021, 06:32:27 PM
I agree with awjdthumper's interpretation of how the key data is stored in the ECU rather than the immobiliser.

Although there are comments in the service manual about the need to pair the ECU and immobiliser, I'm not entirely sure thus is necessary. If it was, then a DTC would be generated if there was a mismatch. More likely, I think, is that the ECU needs to be paired with an immobiliser 'type' rather than a specific device serial number.

As mentioned yesterday, I can provide the details on how to monitor the CAN-bus for the key handshake data and the pass / fail message.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on November 23, 2021, 07:45:48 PM
It would be good to confirm or refute the duff key hypothesis via the Can-Bus messages and it would be useful if you could outline what would be involved in terms of the hardware/software required.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: chuckxc on November 23, 2021, 09:16:46 PM
More good analysis guys. Yes, it would seem this test would single out the MegaChops key as the fault since test 1 and 3 give the same result.
I have heard that a qualified locksmith has the electronics to interrogate and read the code within an electronic key like these. But I don't know for sure.

If so, if he had MegaChops key along with another known good Triumph key, he could determine if it is responding. Might be worth a phone call to a locksmith?
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: Stevie.P on November 23, 2021, 10:29:12 PM
*Originally Posted by chuckxc [+]
.
I have heard that a qualified locksmith has the electronics to interrogate and read the code within an electronic key like these. But I don't know for sure.

I know it is possible .... as in .... a few years back, maybe 7, I bought my daughter a little 2006 VW Polo which unfortunately only had 1 key with it. The salesman gave me a number of a mobile locksmith and told me when done he'd refund the cost. The guy turned up in a small Ford Escort type van but clearly kitted out for the task. He plugged a box of tricks into the cars OBD socket, presumably interrogating the ECU, and after a few minutes it returned a number. He wrote this number down then went back to the van. Mounted on the wall was another electronic box, he selected a suitable chip for a VW key and dropped it into the box and entered the previous number. A few seconds later he inserted the chip into the corner of a new blank key. Then using the key I had moved to his cutting machine and copied the actual key then tested it on the car. The cost for a key was £45, so I asked for 2 to be made so he charged me £80 but gave me a £45 receipt for 1 for the garage that I claimed back.

He was very professional and probably a similar age to me but explained that his profession would just see his working time out as the latest cars had already started using technology that would be beyond 3rd party services such that it would only be possible to pay the official dealers to obtain spare keys at serious cost.

I don't know about similar mobile services in MegaChops area, obviously he was vehicle orientated and the usual High Street key cutting shops are more domestic orientated and probably unlikely to have those electronics for reading the ECU, though I imagine they can normally copy a known good key chip as I've seen that advertised .... this ECU/VIN interrogation possibly being the obstacle for MegaChops? :027:
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on November 23, 2021, 11:02:33 PM
The immobilisers fitted to vehicles are there to prevent someone without the proper key from starting it. However, if you have a key then it should be relatively easy to determine the code simply by monitoring the message on the Can-Bus sent by the immobiliser to the ECU containing the code read from the key. Once you have the code you can then programme a replacement key.

Unfortunately, the problem here is that there is only 1 key and the chip appears not to be working and hence the immobiliser cannot read the code and then send it to the ECU. If that is the case, the only place the code is stored is within the ECU and the big question is whether it is possible to extract it in some way. I believe the starting point would have to be a Triumph dealer.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: D6864 on November 24, 2021, 02:27:44 PM
Here's a post confirming that the keys are registered with the immobiliser, and the immobiliser is paired with the ECU (on a Trophy which uses the same system):
https://www.triumph-trophy.com/index.php/topic,1747.msg23241.html#msg23241 (https://www.triumph-trophy.com/index.php/topic,1747.msg23241.html#msg23241)

and a video showing new key registration to the immobiliser:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cmSwJYPZSA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cmSwJYPZSA)

Pages 10.79 and 10.90 of the service manual cover the relevant ECU and immobiliser DTCs.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on November 24, 2021, 03:38:19 PM
I am assuming the tests carried out were with your immobilser because you didn't mention trying the one from MegaChops bike.

If the code is stored in the immobiliser then all the tests done with MegaChops key (Tests 1 & 2) should have resulted in a flashing MIL and the one done with your key (Test 2) should have been fine. However, you got the opposite results. Test 2 resulted in a flashing MIL which I interpret as due to the key code being stored within the ECU (MegaChops) and not matching your key. I interpret the null results in Test 1 & 3 as due to MegaChops key being duff and simply not being detected by the immobiliser.

It would be nice if teh key code was stored in the immobiliser because it would then be easier to sort the problem. However, your test data seems to back up teh view that the key code is stored in the ECU :084:
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on November 24, 2021, 10:19:48 PM
Agree, it sounds like my new key has failed. Luckily I have my old ignition set, with 2 keys, I'll ring the dealer tomorrow to get a cost to pair it up. Thanks for this lads

Just another thought (I might just be being stupid), could it be the key code reader thing on the new igntion set thats faulty and not the key? I'm just thinking, if I connect ,y old igntion set, move the ring thing (which I assume is the key code reader) from the ignition set and move it as far away from the igntion as I can (with the new key sticky taped on to it), cover the old key in foil and then try it. Would this eliminate the key code reader.

I'll need to wait till I get it back next week, but I'm just wanting to cover all angles before I send to the dealer to avoid any excessive costs.

Also @T800XC, will this lead work to get the CANBUS output so I can see if the key is detected (like you mentioned)

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/304229342826?hash=item46d57b5e6a:g:vR4AAOSwabhhlbbg

Thanks


Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on November 24, 2021, 10:32:10 PM
If you screen the new key fob with foil and put your old key fob close to it when you switch on the ignition, it should read the code from the old key and generate a flashing MIL and DTC.  If not, the pickup coil in the ignition set has failed, probably. When I get back from London tomorrow, I'll try the test with my pair of keys to check this approach works.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on November 25, 2021, 04:56:05 AM
If its not too late it would be very helpful if D6864 could do a few extra tests with his bike back in its original state.

Test 1: with his key fob screened with aluminium foil, to switch on his ignition to check the engine will not start.

Test 2: same again but with his spare key fob held close to screened fob to check the bike now starts.

Test 3: same again but with MegaChops key held close to screened key to see what happens. If this throws up a flashing MIL and DTC it will mean MegaChops key is working otherwise it will mean it is duff.

If the key is working then do the tests you intended with your original key to see if the problem lies with the ignition pick up coil.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: T800XC on November 25, 2021, 06:29:25 AM
*Originally Posted by MegaChops [+]
Also @T800XC, will this lead work to get the CANBUS output so I can see if the key is detected (like you mentioned)

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/304229342826?hash=item46d57b5e6a:g:vR4AAOSwabhhlbbg

It should, but if you read the TigerTool threads you'll see there are some compatibility issues with these leads.

For the commands to monitor the CAN-bus I'd hope that lead would be ok.

Apologies for not posting the CAN-bus info yet. We've had to get some urgent work sorted on our house so I've not been at my PC all week. I should be in a position to post the info either this evening or tomorrow.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: D6864 on November 25, 2021, 09:15:23 AM
*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
If its not too late it would be very helpful if D6864 could do a few extra tests with his bike back in its original state.

Test 1: with his key fob screened with aluminium foil, to switch on his ignition to check the engine will not start.

Test 2: same again but with his spare key fob held close to screened fob to check the bike now starts.

Test 3: same again but with MegaChops key held close to screened key to see what happens. If this throws up a flashing MIL and DTC it will mean MegaChops key is working otherwise it will mean it is duff.

If the key is working then do the tests you intended with your original key to see if the problem lies with the ignition pick up coil.

This is actually how I've performed the tests so far as I haven't had time to remove the tank to get to the ignition switch connector!
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: D6864 on November 25, 2021, 10:06:55 AM
*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
I am assuming the tests carried out were with your immobilser because you didn't mention trying the one from MegaChops bike.
Yes, I only have my immobiliser module.

*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
If the code is stored in the immobiliser then all the tests done with MegaChops key (Tests 1 & 2) should have resulted in a flashing MIL and the one done with your key (Test 2) should have been fine.
I'm sure keys are paired to the immobiliser. In Tests 1 and 3, MegaChops' key isn't paired to my immobiliser so it puts the alarm light on and doesn't unlock the ECU; the ECU does not flash the MIL or raise a DTC in this case.

*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
However, you got the opposite results. Test 2 resulted in a flashing MIL which I interpret as due to the key code being stored within the ECU (MegaChops) and not matching your key. I interpret the null results in Test 1 & 3 as due to MegaChops key being duff and simply not being detected by the immobiliser.
In this case, my immobiliser verifies my key and unlocks the ECU; only then does the ECU check its pairing with the immobiliser, this fails so it flashes the MIL and raises a DTC.

*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
It would be nice if teh key code was stored in the immobiliser because it would then be easier to sort the problem. However, your test data seems to back up teh view that the key code is stored in the ECU :084:
Either of us could be right, but I think my explanation fits better with the evidence from the service manual and online. The next step should be to get a dealer to do the key-immobiliser and immobiliser-ECU pairings. Then I would put money on the bike running again.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on November 25, 2021, 02:40:21 PM
Spoken to Team Roberts and its £40 to code my keys to my bike. I'm really hoping this is the problem. Just need to figure how to get my bike to them.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: grizzlybear on November 25, 2021, 03:35:55 PM
We all crossing our fingers🤞🤞🤞 :123:
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on November 25, 2021, 04:37:20 PM
In answer to D6864:

My working assumption is that the key code checking is carried out within the ECU but I have found no definitive information to verify this or to verify the alternative of the checking being done in the immobiliser. I would like to believe what my fellow South Brum forum member (Conconut) said but I'm slightly skeptical!

In the case of Test 3, it shouldn't really matter which of the above two alternatives is correct since the test was done with your immobiliser and your ECU. MegaChops key has the wrong code for your bike and so should have resulted in a flashing MIL and DTC being generated. The only reason I can think of to explain why it didn't produce this result is that his ignition set is duff.

As discussed, in order to rule out MegaChops ignition pick-up coil rather than the key being the problem, it would be good to test his fob on another bike in the way suggested; that is, to switch on the ignition with the bike's key fob screened with Al foil and at the same time to bring MegaChops key fob in close contact with bike's key fob. If you get a flashing MIL, MegaChops key is ok otherwise it is not.

Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on November 25, 2021, 06:50:24 PM
I've just reviewed all the data and also managed to find more information on how modern immobiliser systems work and basically now more or less agree with D6864's understanding. Essentially, MegaChops problem is almost certainly due to his Immobiliser not being recognised by his new ECU. The Immobiliser does the key code checking and can be programmed to accept the code for whatever keys are to be used. However, since the Immobiliser is not recognised by the new ECU, the latter will not accept its messaging following a successful key code verification and will produce a flashing MIL and P1508 fault code in response, and the bike will not start.

On the basis of this understanding, MegaChops two old keys should be ok to use with his old ignition set - the codes should already be programmed into his Immobiliser. However, my understanding is that the Immobiliser needs to be programmed with the correct code to enable it to be recognised by the ECU. I don't know for certain but I assume this code will be based on the ECU's VIN and can be programmed into the Immobiliser by a Triumph dealer :084:
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: D6864 on November 26, 2021, 03:17:44 PM
As requested, a few final tests with Tigertool before I send MegaChops' parts back to him:

I also cleared the residual P0335 and P1632 DTCs that MegaChops found during his testing, hopefully this means that his ECU will work once paired with his immobiliser.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: Tallpaul on November 26, 2021, 03:32:50 PM
Great work team! It's way beyond me, but I am heartened to see so much input trying to get this sorted.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: T800XC on November 26, 2021, 03:37:27 PM
*Originally Posted by D6864 [+]
As requested, a few final tests with Tigertool before I send MegaChops' parts back to him:...

Good work. When are you planning to post it back?

I'm finally at my desk and writing the notes on how to read the ECU / immobiliser comms from the CAN-Bus. I'll get that posted this evening in the 'How To' section to save cluttering this thread.

You could use the ELM327 interface you use for TigerTool to run the tests, if you have the time.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on November 26, 2021, 05:31:48 PM
*Originally Posted by D6864 [+]
As requested, a few final tests with Tigertool before I send MegaChops' parts back to him:

Thanks very much for this!  :046: Your tests (if im reading them correctly) show my key is working, but there is an immboliser issue (DTC L0008) . Fingers crossed, the dealer pairing will fix it

I never seen the DTC L0008 before in TuneECU, I'm guessing this only shows in TigerTool?

Thanks again
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: T800XC on November 26, 2021, 06:07:47 PM
*Originally Posted by MegaChops [+]
I never seen the DTC L0008 before in TuneECU, I'm guessing this only shows in TigerTool?
Correct. As far as I know, neither TuneECU nor Dealertool offer the option to read immobiliser DTCs, but since I added TPMS programming to TigerTool you can read them with it.
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: T800XC on November 26, 2021, 06:46:04 PM
I've posted instructions in the 'How To' section for reading the CAN-Bus data related to the ECU / immobiliser startup handshake when reading the ignition key ID.

You can read it here...

Monitor ECU / Immobiliser Handshake CAN-Bus Data (https://www.tiger800.co.uk/index.php/topic,30335.msg323718.html#msg323718)
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: chuckxc on November 26, 2021, 08:55:43 PM
*Originally Posted by T800XC [+]
I've posted instructions in the 'How To' section for reading the CAN-Bus data related to the ECU / immobiliser startup handshake when reading the ignition key ID.

You can read it here...

Monitor ECU / Immobiliser Handshake CAN-Bus Data (https://www.tiger800.co.uk/index.php/topic,30335.msg323718.html#msg323718)
Excellent work T800XC ! Thanks for all your efforts. I know how tedious it can be to deep-dive into the Tiger CAN bus and sleuth around trying to work out what's happening with all that bus traffic. But to 'surface' and write up your findings as a reference for everyone is very much appreciated on the forum. Well done--- again!!
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: MegaChops on November 27, 2021, 12:18:35 AM
*Originally Posted by T800XC [+]
I've posted instructions in the 'How To' section for reading the CAN-Bus data related to the ECU / immobiliser startup handshake when reading the ignition key ID.

You can read it here...

Monitor ECU / Immobiliser Handshake CAN-Bus Data (https://www.tiger800.co.uk/index.php/topic,30335.msg323718.html#msg323718)

Very nice, thanks very much!
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: awjdthumper on November 27, 2021, 08:47:58 AM
To be strict, the process of getting the ECU to recognise the Immobiliser (ECU) is not 'pairing' - this term is applied to blue tooth comms and involves the largely public and automatic exchange of encryption keys and other data so that the two devices can subsequently exchange encrypted data.

The problem with looking at Can-Bus data to show that the immobiliser has validated the ignition key code is that the communication with the ECU will be encrypted for security reasons meaning that you will not be able to make any sense of the messages. As I have now found out, that is the way that modern immobiliser systems with a separate immobiliser ECU have to work. When challenged by the ECU, you will therefore not be able to tell the difference between a message from the immobiliser saying the key has been validated or a message saying it has not. If you could then it would be very easy to defeat the purpose of the immobiliser.

I don't really know what it will take to get the ECU in question to recognise the immobiliser since there are potentially a number of different ways that this could have been set up. At the very minimum, both devices need to be programmed with matching encryption keys and possibly also programmed with the same security code. The question is what was programmed in at the factory and what now needs to be programmed in to get the comms working? Whatever the answer, I am sure the Triumph dealer will be able to sort it :001:
Title: Re: New ECU Advice
Post by: T800XC on November 27, 2021, 10:15:40 AM
*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
The problem with looking at Can-Bus data to show that the immobiliser has validated the ignition key code is that the communication with the ECU will be encrypted for security reasons meaning that you will not be able to make any sense of the messages...

...When challenged by the ECU, you will therefore not be able to tell the difference between a message from the immobiliser saying the key has been validated or a message saying it has not...

As I hoped I'd explained in the new 'How To' thread, although monitoring the CAN-Bus won't allow you to decode the key data, it will allow you to see the status messages from the ECU at the end of the handshake to know whether the bike is immobilised or ready to start.

i.e. 591 B0 (immobilised) or 591 A0 (ready).

From my previous testing that has proved useful.