Triumph Tiger 800 Forum

Tiger 800 - Main Discussion Section => General Maintenance and Servicing => Topic started by: skydso on March 20, 2017, 08:24:31 PM

Title: Another starter post!
Post by: skydso on March 20, 2017, 08:24:31 PM
Hi all, I've only just bought my Tiger and lately joined this forum and found it's full of useful information! In fact, it's through the info found here that I arrived to my problem!
Anyway, after following all the posts and threads regarding the slow cranking problem on the earlier Tiger 800, I deducted that the only thing left was the starter motor itself, being the troublesome -4450 model.
I searched on here and all I found was that one has to remove the tank, airbox and injectors to be able to arrive to the starter.
Not necessarily, no.
Just thought I'd let you all know, in case nobody tried it, that the starter can actually be pulled out without removing anything above it!
First up, I unbolted the battery and then the positive supply to the starter ... Then all I removed was the rear shock reservoir, unclipped it from the jubilee clips and pushed it to the side. Like that I could fit my hands as far as on top of the starter. Used a 1/4" drive U/J with a T-handle to undo the 2x 8mm hex heads right behind the starter.
It takes A LOT of fiddling to find the right position of the bolts blindly but eventually you manage to hit it. The left bolt (front if you're sitting on the bike) is fairly easy. The rear is a bit more of a bugger because there's some grounded clip holding a block connector in place due to which the socket won't sit into the 8mm head! To pull out the block connector you have to press the little tab with a long flat screwdriver and pull it up with a long nose pliers.
Once removed you can easily get the socket over the other 8mm hex head (the one at the rear of the two mounting points if you're sitting on the bike).
Once those two bolts are undone, you just push the starter out of its seating (comes out with a pop due to the oil seal fit), rotate it by some 60 clockwise ( backwards if you're sitting on the bike) and it will just come out freely.
I opened it and it's a real mess in there!  :161:
Starter and brushed don't look like they're in a good condition! I will take it to a guy here who services starter motors first thing tomorrow morning and see what he has to say.
I will keep you updated about it ...
Title: Re: Another starter post!
Post by: Burt on March 22, 2017, 12:02:15 AM
*Originally Posted by skydso [+]
I opened it and it's a real mess in there!  :161:
Starter and brushed don't look like they're in a good condition! I will take it to a guy here who services starter motors first thing tomorrow morning and see what he has to say.
I will keep you updated about it ...

I wouldn't put that rotor back in. Is completely worn out. Even if you put new brushes it won't last very long.. You can see the amount of material missing in the picture...
Title: Re: Another starter post!
Post by: skydso on March 22, 2017, 06:15:33 AM
At only 27,000 KMS! :-( in fact I ordered the -4452 and it's on the way. I'll just refurbish this one and leave it as a spare in case the other one f*cks up again!

 

Title: Re: Another starter post!
Post by: Burt on March 22, 2017, 08:24:40 AM
*Originally Posted by skydso [+]
At only 27,000 KMS! :-( in fact I ordered the -4452 and it's on the way. I'll just refurbish this one and leave it as a spare in case the other one f*cks up again!


Mileage is irrelevant for a starter motor. That rotor looks like it has been working very hard or in dirty water. You are missing a lot of material... Wrong brushes maybe?....
Title: Re: Another starter post!
Post by: Rtwo on March 22, 2017, 08:50:50 AM
That commutator is wrecked for all intents and purposes

I've not looked at the cost of replacement parts other than the brushes and holders but it may be worth pricing up


Title: Re: Another starter post!
Post by: skydso on March 22, 2017, 10:00:27 AM
*Originally Posted by Burt [+]
Mileage is irrelevant for a starter motor. That rotor looks like it has been working very hard or in dirty water. You are missing a lot of material... Wrong brushes maybe?....
No idea! Bought the bike used and didn't have a glitch when I bought it! First it started giving me starting problems as soon as I got it, butni replaced the battery and all went fine till about 2-3 months later, some 1500kms. Then it started fouling on me again and slowly losing cranking speed. I started pointing towards the battery, but since the battery was new, I couldn't blame it. Cleaned all electrical points like grounds and lives and also the infamous stepper motor, but to no avail. Then I pulled the starter out and found this mess!!!  (https://www.tiger800.co.uk/Smileys/tiger/003.gif)  
*Originally Posted by Burt [+]
Mileage is irrelevant for a starter motor. That rotor looks like it has been working very hard or in dirty water. You are missing a lot of material... Wrong brushes maybe?....


 

Title: Re: Another starter post!
Post by: skydso on March 22, 2017, 02:42:39 PM
A quick spin on the lathe and easy does it, nice, straight and shiny!  :152:
Just gotta wait for the parts to get here now and once assembled I'll test it and keep it as a spare!
Title: Re: Another starter post!
Post by: skydso on March 24, 2017, 07:07:06 AM
39.13 for the parts ... not bad compared to 800 for a new starter!

 

Title: Re: Another starter post!
Post by: Burt on March 24, 2017, 11:43:33 AM
*Originally Posted by skydso [+]
39.13 for the parts ... not bad compared to 800 for a new starter!


in fact I ordered the -4452 and it's on the way

How much was it for the new 4452?
Title: Re: Another starter post!
Post by: skydso on March 24, 2017, 03:30:23 PM
Got it used ... 150

 

Title: Re: Another starter post!
Post by: Burt on March 24, 2017, 03:45:32 PM
*Originally Posted by skydso [+]
Got it used ... 150

 

That's a bargain... You did pretty well.. 190 for two working starter motor...
Title: Re: Another starter post!
Post by: JMc on March 24, 2017, 04:49:13 PM
I've been pulling DC motors apart for years (from W to KW's, the biggest being a pair of 287KW bad boys) and as the OP has done, most are easily sorted by a skim of the com on a lathe and a cutback of the segments to stop tracking. A set of new brushes and away you go.  We used to use "com sticks" to clean up coms either on a running motor that you could get to or on a lathe to spin the com out of the motor.

Don't give up on one unless the windings are open circuit. Make sure the permanent magnets are still secure. and replace bearings if possible.

jmc
Title: Re: Another starter post!
Post by: skydso on March 26, 2017, 09:22:32 AM
Cheers!!! Windings seem to be fine. I'll have a look at the bearings if there are any, but I doubt I noticed any! There is a bush at the end so I'll spray in some PTFE dry lube, Molykote, same stuff we use on Airbus engine blades ... should be good enough I guess?! :-P

 

Title: Re: Another starter post!
Post by: skydso on April 05, 2017, 10:45:28 PM
Just thought I'd give a quick update ...
Parts for the starter arrived but the following day, before I had time to service the starter I had in hand, the upgraded -4452 starter arrived in the post!
Needless to say I just jumped on it and fitted it! I was quick to put it in place but I just couldn't gather enough strength in my fingers to push into its recess.
I took a few photos ...
Once in position, I used a sliding hammer to be able to push it into its seating:

(https://cdn.tt.tiger800.co.uk/fe720713156f3d59fa5ef462afcbfcad.jpg)

I used a retrieving magnet to be able to position the starter mounting bolts being the starter where I couldn't see them ...

(https://cdn.tt.tiger800.co.uk/f109ac418f008b8c68b6098f2aca3ca3.jpg)

But the bolt just wouldn't start screwing into the thread ... So I got my phone in position since I ain't got a borescope and took a photo of what I couldn't see:

(https://cdn.tt.tiger800.co.uk/c38a5240313f0e7d67b02cbfa88f7b0c.jpg)

Aha! Holes not aligning, no bloody wonder!!! So I got a flat screwdriver and prayed it back out a few mm ...

(https://cdn.tt.tiger800.co.uk/368d8cfa65f45ce6938677788ee172cf.jpg)

Now the trick was to be able to reach the head of the bolt, turn it and tighten it! Good luck Dave!
So out comes the UJ and an unlimited number of different sized extensions and 8mm sockets!
Just make sure you're aligned properly and the UJ is well greased otherwise you wouldn't manage to turn the bolt!

(https://cdn.tt.tiger800.co.uk/5d43f8aecff1d05ba189adadf5870c55.jpg)

There, easy does it.
Now the rear bolt, the one with the little bracket on it ... this is going to be a nightma ... oh hang on, where's the magnet again?

(https://cdn.tt.tiger800.co.uk/21873b5a44b3eae731a110a6be2de7ae.jpg)

The magnet held the bracket in place and since there's a little tab on the bracket, the bracket wouldn't turn when I tightened the rear bolt!

You definitely need to shift this hose from here:

(https://cdn.tt.tiger800.co.uk/eee0c61efb6e80251a3bcd4a93573dfa.jpg)

To here ...

(https://cdn.tt.tiger800.co.uk/bd920674bd763420a4a6c6970712f45e.jpg)

... using the starter's lead attachment as a hook to hold the hose otherwise you wouldn't manage to get to the rear bolt to tighten it!

Then just clip the block connector to the little clip behind the starter, attach the power lead to the starter tab, mount the rear shock reservoir back in place by tightening the two jubilee clips on it to the frame tabs again and Bob's your uncle! Done!

I will now service the old starter at the first chance I get so I'll keep it as a fresh spare in the garage just in case another ordeal like this pops up!!!

Title: Re: Another starter post!
Post by: CSAW on July 14, 2017, 07:08:16 PM
I thank you for this post.  Mine is acting up and I ordered the parts today.  I was dreading taking the whole thing apart.  :037:
Title: Re: Another starter post!
Post by: skydso on July 14, 2017, 08:25:07 PM
 :152:
Title: Re: Another starter post!
Post by: CSAW on July 26, 2017, 02:31:14 PM
Well I got my parts and took my starter out and took it apart.  Absolutely nothing wrong with it.  Brushes still 90-95% or so, commutator excellent.  Had armature checked.  All was well so I cleaned the com and put it back together.  Only been for one test ride and so far so good.  Only had problem occasionally and only when hot.

I can confirm removing starter without taking bike apart is a 15 minute job.  Thanks again.

A little bit on starters.  My bike is a 2012.  The original starter was replaced under warranty at 22,000 miles in early 2013.  I was a little surprised to find the replacement starter was the newer one (4452).  Bike now has 48,000 miles and starter looked almost new inside.  So evidently there is something different about the updated starter.

Still not sure what the problem was/is, I guess time will tell.
Title: Re: Another starter post!
Post by: skydso on July 26, 2017, 02:39:33 PM
Has the problem occurred again though after having taken the starter apart?
Title: Re: Another starter post!
Post by: CSAW on July 26, 2017, 05:41:44 PM
*Originally Posted by skydso [+]
Has the problem occurred again though after having taken the starter apart?

No, only ridden it once since.  Started fine when I got home.  Then started again 5-10-15 minutes later.  Started fine every time.  However it didn't do it every time before.  Hoping maybe a sticky brush, bad starter ground where it bolts to block or bad connection on starter.  However didn't see anything that would make me think this.

If it does it again I will start looking further.  I didn't really check anything but the battery before going for the starter.  All the starter posts here had me worried about the starter before I even started. :001:

Title: Re: Another starter post!
Post by: skydso on July 27, 2017, 07:46:20 AM
Just check all the connections then ... clean and re-assemble and cover in silicon grease/Vaseline:
the positive coming from the solenoid onto the starter (top bolt on starter), both mounting bolts of the starter (grounds), both battery terminals and both solenoid terminals (solenoid is placed under the battery!)
Once everything is clean you know you don't have electricity problems! ;)
Title: Re: Another starter post!
Post by: burakbos on September 21, 2017, 03:49:45 PM
I am going to change starter motor, I did some research before get action. I want to share that information I guess I found correct information.

Like most of you, I call online dealers and check part numbers, and emailed Triumph aftersales, they told me on email that 'T1311112 is for Street Triples. For your bike you will require T1316677.' BUT one of them is 150 expensive!!

I do not know what is behind that but

http://www.2wheelpros.com/oem-parts/triumph-starter-motor-black-t1311112-part.html
 
go to above link and see information as

This Part Replaces
T1310060

YUPPY, found most important information.

you can also search on that website the other part number, they have both of them.

And I also want to know how they looks like? Is going to fix if I buy the cheapest one???

See attached pictures for original part. and see drawings on fowlers parts, from below link
https://www.fowlersparts.co.uk/parts/view/T1311112

I can not find any difference, and decided to order cheapest (T1311112). By the way I will order first brushes from ebay which will cost 75, replace them and then will decide to order new starter motor.


Title: Re: Another starter post!
Post by: Rtwo on September 21, 2017, 04:11:31 PM
*Originally Posted by burakbos [+]
By the way I will order first brushes from ebay which will cost 75, replace them and then will decide to order new starter motor.

Replacement brushes and holder etc. should be no more than 25, I think mine were 24 shipped

Title: Re: Another starter post!
Post by: burakbos on September 21, 2017, 08:58:15 PM
*Originally Posted by Rtwo [+]
Replacement brushes and holder etc. should be no more than 25, I think mine were 24 shipped

thank you, I will search more for cheapest options.
Title: Re: Another starter post!
Post by: Rtwo on September 21, 2017, 09:57:39 PM
Post #25 on this thread should point you in the right direction

https://www.tiger800.co.uk/index.php/topic,11947.20.html