Triumph Tiger 800 Forum

Tiger 800 - Main Discussion Section => Electrical, Lighting, and Wiring => Topic started by: Manxytiger on April 15, 2014, 11:27:49 AM

Title: Starter Motor
Post by: Manxytiger on April 15, 2014, 11:27:49 AM
I was having intermittent starting problems with my 2012 Tiger 800 last week. Battery checked out ok, turns out the starter motor is knackered. Fortunately it's still under warranty, but it seems awfully young for this to happen. Has anyone else experienced a failed starter motor?
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: TampaJim on April 15, 2014, 04:04:49 PM
The starter motor on my original 2011 T800 went out at 38,000 miles. It was out of warranty but Triumph replaced it anyway except for the labor.

It worked fine when cold but not when the bike was hot.
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: bob4026 on April 17, 2014, 10:27:23 AM
These things happen mate...

Not necessarily a Triumph issue, as they are made elsewhere and are sourced.

I'm sure Triumph will sort you out. Well, I'd hope they would. Their after sales is quite good overall. One or two less than helpful dealers, but find a good one and I'm sure you will be fine. Not sure what ur dealer options are on the Island?

ATB

Bob
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: AvgBear on April 17, 2014, 05:36:28 PM
It could be, too -- especially if the history of the bike -- since new -- is unknown? that somewhere along the line someone operated the starter motor in excess and overheated it.
I've witnessed it when, for some reason, a bike (any bike) didn't start. Non-mechanical types sometimes think more cranking will make it go.
Back in the good old days, if an engine didn't start? -- the next thing to fail was the kick-starter...  :018:
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: Jamstealer on April 17, 2014, 05:47:27 PM
*Originally Posted by AvgBear [+]

Back in the good old days, if an engine didn't start? -- the next thing to fail was the kick-starter...  :018:

Well in the good old days starter motors were unheard of! 

So it was the kicker:   and then bump starting:   

In fact one of my first bikes had a knackered kickstart and I could not repair it (the whole housing was knackered,) so it was bump starting every time.     :005:

Must admit, I am old enough to not like the idea that my bike does doesn't have a kick start as a back up.    :012:
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: Warod on April 17, 2014, 07:16:58 PM
In the "Good Ole Days" I used to have a really slutty girlfriend who could Suck Start my Harley Shovel-head......aaaaahhhhh !
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: Manxytiger on April 20, 2014, 08:35:45 AM
I've owned the bike since new. Jason Griffiths is my local dealer and he's fantastic. Bike is being repaired under warranty as we speak.

Meanwhile he has loaned me a Bonneville. Which is erm different!
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: AvgBear on April 20, 2014, 01:59:00 PM
*Originally Posted by Manxytiger [+]
I've owned the bike since new.
Okay (thanks), we can cross-out abuse / improper use.
It would be interesting to know just what went wrong with the starter motor -- bad coils / brushes / ? (electrical or mechanical?)?  :187:
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: Manxytiger on April 23, 2014, 12:53:11 PM
Update. I had a call to say my bike was fixed...new starter motor fitted. Apparently it is a known problem, not just with the Tiger model. So off I went this morning to pick it up...got it home and lo and behold.......exhibits same symptoms. So I have just taken it back to the dealer who is a bit puzzled. I wouldn't be especially bothered at this point, except that hubby and I are supposed to be taking the bikes to France next Tuesday. I have continental breakdown and recovery service, but we are two ferry trips away from home (live on Isle of Man) and would rather not be in the position of having to go home on a truck.
I have spoken to my insurance company and my policy doesn't cover me for riding someone else's bike in France and I can only add a bike to the policy if I own it, so that means I can't borrow a friend's bike.
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: Manxytiger on May 09, 2014, 07:09:42 AM
Just to update.....Jason Griffiths fitted another new starter motor, stolen from a bike he had in the showroom, as there wasn't time to get one from the uk before my French trip. The guys at the dealership couldn't have been more helpful and the bike has just done 1400 miles with no problems, so let's hope that's that.

I can report that Triumph have been experiencing problems with starter motors, so be aware.
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: jpTigerCDN on May 30, 2015, 01:34:31 AM
I think I may be joining the queue of starter motor failures. Only 21,000 kms on a 2011 roadie and all I can get out of the starter is a double cough and no engine turnover. Will let you know how my dealer responds here in western Canada.
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: charrito on June 29, 2015, 09:44:08 PM
We must have twin bikes...I also have a 2011 roadie with about 21k miles and have the same issue when the bike is hot.
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: Cariboo_kid on August 17, 2015, 04:13:19 PM
My starter motor has just lately started to sound like it's clattering for a few seconds after the bike starts. Has anyone else run across this issue?
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: AvgBear on August 18, 2015, 06:10:27 PM
*Originally Posted by Cariboo_kid [+]
Has anyone else run across this issue?
Not to my knowledge (haven't read about it here)?  :187:
But, one thing that could cause what you're describing could be the sprag sarter-drive hanging-up? (admittedly, they don't usually fail that way -- more often, they fail to engage)
An easy attempt for relief would be to change oil & filter -- making sure to use recco'd spec.
(this is just "assuming" the sprag is "sticking" and dragging the starter motor after the bike has started  :027: )
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: Kowalski on September 09, 2015, 06:08:17 AM
My starter on my 2011xc  started playing up at 50k km`s while on a 4 month trip around Mexico, it would bind up when hot but would start no problem when cold. By the time i got home even when the bike was only warm it wouldn`t start.

When the bike was new i know the original owner had the dreaded stalling issue while on a long trip which probably shortened the life of the starter.  New starter motor, end of problem.
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: chuckxc on November 09, 2015, 01:05:54 AM
Starter motor heat problem - I think there could be a common problem here. When my 2012 800 XC engine becomes hot by sitting at idle,  and if it is turned off and on again, the starter motor will fail to crank, either sluggish at best or no turnover at all at worst. Wait 10 min. for the bike to cool down, and back to normal. New battery, clean cables. I did an experiment, I first caused the problem by sitting at idle, then doused the starter motor with cold water from the hose, and it started normally immediately after the water cool down.
No wait.

I'd be interested to hear from others with the same symptoms. And does Triumph know anything about this they are not telling?


Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: Kowalski on November 09, 2015, 06:18:06 AM
I talked to Triumph North America and they weren`t interested. For the small amount of complaints there is no way they will warranty it unless you have a very sympathetic dealer. It appears just to be one of those items that has a lifespan of around 50k. Pricey little bugger too. Its a common starter with other models so you could try salvage yards.
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: chuckxc on November 09, 2015, 06:51:36 AM
Thanks Kowalski, and l should have added,   yep done over 50,000  km. Not impressed!
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: muedet on November 09, 2015, 08:52:15 AM
Hi guys,
pls have a look at a german forum:
http://www.tigerhome.de/index.php?showtopic=28918 (http://www.tigerhome.de/index.php?showtopic=28918)

Seems to be caused by design and/or material used and come up after 50 thousands.

Cheers
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: Bladerunner99 on November 09, 2015, 09:21:43 AM
*Originally Posted by muedet [+]
Hi guys,
pls have a look at a german forum:
http://www.tigerhome.de/index.php?showtopic=28918 (http://www.tigerhome.de/index.php?showtopic=28918)

Seems to be caused by design and/or material used and come up after 50 thousands.

Cheers


That's all very well if you can speak German  :157:
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: muedet on November 09, 2015, 09:29:50 AM
Reading german is sufficient, speaking not necessary  :150:

Of course you're right, but the pictures are doing a bit of translation .

In fact you will need to replace the brushes and revise the collector on a turning machine.

Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: chuckxc on November 13, 2015, 08:41:52 AM
The Brushes are worn down completely after 50k km. Piccie here. Triumph (or Denso) won't sell replacement brushes, just the whole starter motor for over $700. A case of gouge the customer.
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: D6864 on November 13, 2015, 09:10:26 AM
Try an automotive electrical specialist; I'm pretty sure you will find replacement brushes even if you have to file them down to fit the holders, for example:
http://ricksmotorsportelectrics.com/starter-brushes (http://ricksmotorsportelectrics.com/starter-brushes)
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: chuckxc on November 13, 2015, 10:03:18 PM
Thanks D6864, I did turn the commutator down on the lathe and tried to source other brushes, unfortunately I could only find pure carbon, not copper/carbon material like the original. So l'll try the website you mentioned and see if they have something better.
Used to be able to buy brushes by the bucket load,  but these days the OEMs lock them up so we are forced to buy the whole motor.
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: chuckxc on December 01, 2015, 09:23:29 PM
Having now purchased a replacement starter motor from Triumph for too much money I believe there is probably a design or manufacturing defect in the original Denso starter motors, P/N 428000-5540, which have now been upgraded to -5542. I suspect it was in at least the Tiger 800XC 2011-2012 models, based on the forum reports.

Common failure symptoms in almost all cases include slow or insufficient cranking power when the engine becomes hot, say when idling in hot weather. Acts as if it is a weak battery but it is not, it is a failing starter motor. Once the engine and thus the starter motor cool, it will start again.  This problem occurs more frequently until the motor finally fails at around 50K km.

Also, on another unrelated issue, the grounding of the starter motor is minimal, depending on two small areas under the mounting tangs contacting the engine block, and prone to corrosion. I modified the connection when I replaced the motor.
Chuck
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: Tikru on January 05, 2016, 04:46:36 PM
*Originally Posted by chuckxc [+]
The Brushes are worn down completely after 50k km. Piccie here. Triumph (or Denso) won't sell replacement brushes, just the whole starter motor for over $700. A case of gouge the customer.
Hi,
according to the German forum you need to order the following parts:
Denso 028512-5470 isolator x1
Denso 028530-5302 holder x1
Denso 028530-5312 brush x2

www.al-electric.de (http://www.al-electric.de)

Key the numbers into the "Nach nummer" window, "Suche"=find
"Warenkorb"=cart
"Aktualisieren"=update

Parts 24,06 euros, delivery by DHL to "Neuseeland" 40,40

I am interested in this because i have 2011 Roadie 58 k on the clock, no problems so far.

Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: chuckxc on January 05, 2016, 10:04:23 PM
Good work, Tikru, you have found the correct replacement parts. I have looked at the website pictures and they are the same as those removed from my starter motor, so I am sure they are the right ones.
Thanks for your efforts.
Chuckxc
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: hobie on January 10, 2016, 07:27:21 PM
I think I might have this problem as well.  My bike is 2011 with 43K kms on it.  It won't start while hot, but does after cooling a bit. However, the starter motor turns quite normally; the engine doesn't 'catch' is all.  Is this what others are seeing as well, or would the starter not turn at all if the brushes were worn out?

I had just had my 40K service/valve adjustment before this started happening and the software was updated.  Could this be the cause?

I had the battery tested, and was told it is fine.
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: chuckxc on January 10, 2016, 08:18:34 PM
If the engine won't engage, probably the starter motor is not spinning  fast enough. But if it is ok when cooled down, then sounds like it could be the same problem. My test was to get it hot until it faults, then quickly hose it with cold water until cool and try to start again.
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: gfleck on March 11, 2016, 12:01:41 PM
Reactivating the thread.

There was a recent case on Brazilian forum with a ST3, same problem of starter motor fail. As we know, Triumph deny warranty.

So, a mechanic discovered that the brushes of Suzuki Burgman works on the starter motor of ST3. He fix it for $10,00.

The question is, the starter motor of ST3 is equal to the Tiger?

Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: Captain Crazy on March 11, 2016, 12:15:33 PM
*Originally Posted by gfleck [+]
Reactivating the thread.

There was a recent case on Brazilian forum with a ST3, same problem of starter motor fail. As we know, Triumph deny warranty.

So, a mechanic discovered that the brushes of Suzuki Burgman works on the starter motor of ST3. He fix it for $10,00.

The question is, the starter motor of ST3 is equal to the Tiger?

The question is, the starter motor of ST3 is equal to the Tiger?

Simple answer .... NO   :110:

Early and 2nd generation use one type which is different to the Tiger 8's and then the third Gen ST3 uses yet another different S/Motor different to bother the earlier ST3's and the Tiger 8's as well!   So sorry no, ... but as posted below you can get Brush's to suit?

CC


Addendum ... The bike in question [from the Brazilian Forum as mentioned by gfleck]  was a Speed Triple 675.  Had it been a Street Triple then the Starter Motors on those are the same as the Tiger 8's but NOT the Speeds ... they have a totally different unit! (and then a choice of two types ... blah, blah, blah!!!).   That is all. Carry on your duties ....    :191:
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: gfleck on March 11, 2016, 12:42:49 PM
 :006:

So for those who are interested, the brushes of Suzuki Burgman works on starter motor of ST3.

Suzuki sells the kit with no problem.
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: hobie on March 12, 2016, 05:48:59 PM
So does anyone know where to get brushes for the Tiger?  I am in need of these and so far have not found a source, preferably in North America. 
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: Captain Crazy on March 12, 2016, 07:23:13 PM
*Originally Posted by hobie [+]
So does anyone know where to get brushes for the Tiger?  I am in need of these and so far have not found a source, preferably in North America.

Yes ... Germany?   See Tikru post ....!

*Originally Posted by Tikru [+]
Hi,
according to the German forum you need to order the following parts:
Denso 028512-5470 isolator x1
Denso 028530-5302 holder x1
Denso 028530-5312 brush x2

www.al-electric.de (http://www.al-electric.de)

Key the numbers into the "Nach nummer" window, "Suche"=find
"Warenkorb"=cart
"Aktualisieren"=update

Parts 24,06 euros, delivery by DHL to "Neuseeland" 40,40


OR using the above Denso Part Numbers look to see if there is an Importer in your country or the States that can supply them direct to you?    If not I'm sure they (al-electric.de) will ship from Germany to Canada?

CC
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: hobie on March 13, 2016, 12:48:18 AM
Ordered.  Danke!
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: Captain Crazy on March 13, 2016, 05:08:07 PM
*Originally Posted by hobie [+]
Ordered.  Danke!

Gern geschehen  :031:
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: stevedo on May 24, 2016, 07:38:08 PM
*Originally Posted by hobie [+]
Ordered.  Danke!

Hi Hobie, how did this work out? Were they delivered and did you get them fitted OK?
Cheers
Steve
Checking because I'm currently in El Salvador and heading to South America currently with 65,000km and anticipating starter motor problems. Hoping to order and get delivered to Costa Rica if you confirm all was well with the parts you ordered.
www.tiger800rtw.com (http://www.tiger800rtw.com)
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: hobie on May 25, 2016, 03:10:19 AM
I did get the parts and had a mechanic friend disassemble the bike.  Sadly, the brushes appeared to have shattered and damaged (bent) the contacts on the actuator.  He recommended I get a new motor, which I have ordered and am waiting for it to arrive (1-2 weeks from US to Canada).  I will have some spares for next time, though.
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: T800XC on August 17, 2016, 11:07:26 AM
*Originally Posted by chuckxc
Having now purchased a replacement starter motor from Triumph for too much money I believe there is probably a design or manufacturing defect in the original Denso starter motors, P/N 428000-5540, which have now been upgraded to -5542. I suspect it was in at least the Tiger 800XC 2011-2012 models, based on the forum reports.

Common failure symptoms in almost all cases include slow or insufficient cranking power when the engine becomes hot, say when idling in hot weather. Acts as if it is a weak battery but it is not, it is a failing starter motor. Once the engine and thus the starter motor cool, it will start again.  This problem occurs more frequently until the motor finally fails at around 50K km.
My 2011 800XC only has 10000 miles on it but I've been getting the exact starter motor symptoms as noted above when hot. With this in mind I bought the repair parts recently from a forum member and I've finally had chance to take a proper look and fit the new parts. I'd already eliminated the battery, starter solenoid and their connections so unless there was a problem with excessive resistance from the engine or sprag clutch then it had to be the starter motor that was at fault. (right?)

This weekend I initially removed and cleaned my starter motor and refitted it, just to see if that made a difference. The inside of the motor, around the contact brushes, was quite dirty for only 10000 miles compared to what others have posted, but otherwise the wear appeared to be quite minimal. You can see the evidence in the following images. The second image shows the comparison between an old & new brush...



When I refitted the starter motor and allowed the bike to run for 10~15 minutes for it all to heat up, I discovered that the problem hadn't gone away!  :157: :009:

So the next day I decided to try again. It was a bit of a ball-ache having to remove the panels, fuel tank, airbox and throttle bodies again just to gain access to the starter motor, but it only took around 50 minutes this time so I was getting quicker with practice!

With the starter motor removed it's an easy job to dismantle it, give it a clean and fit the new brushes. The 4 springs needed to be reused from the old assembly and it looks like this when done...(with the exception that I'd not yet soldered the positive terminal in place at this point)...


This just left me with the slightly worn and dirty commutator on the main rotor so I decided to pop that on the lathe and give it a refresh...


Reassembly is a bit trickier than disassembly because the four contact brushes need to be held out of the way of the commutator, but the application of some strategically placed toothpicks helps...


I bolted the motor back onto the bike, and refitted the throttle bodies, airbox etc then ran the 10~15 minute heat-up test. IT WORKS! Several restart attempts later and all was still good. As a final test in yesterday's heatwave I took the bike out for about 40 minutes in slow holiday traffic around the town. Things got really hot and the radiator fan was having to work damn hard. I stopped the bike a couple of times and restarted straight away without issue. Once back home I stopped and restarted the engine many times and on two occasions I had similar symptoms to before (although less severe), but I was being VERY unkind to it and each time it would start when I gave it a second chance.

So for now I'm happy that my starter motor overhaul has 'cured' the problem I was having, but only time will tell how permanent that will be.


The keen eyed amongst you may notice that the starter motor is the original Triumph T1310060 / Denso 428000-5540 and not the more recent upgraded (?) version. What's been changed seems to be a bit of a mystery, as is the reason for the change.
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: Captain Crazy on August 17, 2016, 01:07:57 PM
Great post T800XC and well document ... nice one :028: Plus we now know who to come to for a quick Pit-Stop style Starter Motor knock down and refurbish  :152:

Looking at your first pick of the starter motor armature, that commutator surface contamination would appear to be the cause of your problems and lucky you have your own lathe to be able to redress it.  As you say, it looks pretty mucky in there even at only  10,000 miles but discarded carbon from the Brush's is not the most pleasant of things!

Anyway hopefully yours is sorted and once again ... great write up.  :031:

CC    
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: AvgBear on August 17, 2016, 05:28:15 PM
*Originally Posted by Captain Crazy [+]
Great post T800XC and well document ... great write up.  :031:
:0461:
It is interesting that Triumph has a new (superseded) part # for the starter motor -- it'd be interesting, too, to know more...
But, for those who may be having difficulties, here are some electric motor facts:
So, it may be advisable to only attempt to start the engine whilst in neutral and clutch dis-engaged (thus ensuring that only the fewest components are being spun by the starter motor -- lessening the load).
And, using no engine oil with viscosities in-excess of (heavier/thicker than) what Triumph recco's. 
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: stevedo on August 17, 2016, 08:42:03 PM
*Originally Posted by T800XC [+]
My 2011 800XC only has 10000 miles on it but I've been getting the exact starter motor symptoms as noted above when hot. With this in mind I bought the repair parts recently from a forum member and I've finally had chance to take a proper look and fit the new parts. I'd already eliminated the battery, starter solenoid and their connections so unless there was a problem with excessive resistance from the engine or sprag clutch then it had to be the starter motor that was at fault. (right?)


Hi T800XC, great write up. I'm currently travelling in Central America and soon will be in South America. A friend is coming over from the UK to Panama in a few weeks so I have a chance to get the spare starter motor parts in anticipation of this problem occurring at some point. I'm at 43,500 miles right now.

Which parts did you use? Reply No. 25 in this thread indicates that you need 2 off brushes, 1 isolator and 1 holder. It sure looks to me like you need 4 brushes? Did you also use a new isolator and holder?

Cheers
Steve
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: T800XC on August 18, 2016, 12:50:28 AM
*Originally Posted by stevedo
Which parts did you use? Reply No. 25 in this thread indicates that you need 2 off brushes, 1 isolator and 1 holder. It sure looks to me like you need 4 brushes? Did you also use a new isolator and holder?
I used all 3 new parts listed in post #25 although you could reuse the old isolator if it's not damaged.

The brush holder sub assembly (028530-5302) has 2 of the 4 brushes built-in. These are for the 12V connections.
The isolator plate (028512-5470) houses the 4 springs that you need to reuse from your old set.
You also need the final 2 brushes (028530-5312) for the 0V connections.

Assembly is very easy as it only fits together one way around but I'll post some more photos later and a few assembly notes that might help.
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: T800XC on August 18, 2016, 11:28:29 AM
Some more photos and notes below....

Underside view of the brush assembly removed from the starter motor showing the 0V brush contacts...

Brush holder sub assembly (12V) - 028530-5302...

Isolator plate - 028512-5470 - showing the springs that need to be reused. If undamaged, this whole section could be reused...

Brushes (0V) - 028530-5312 - removed from the assembly. Both are identical and just slot in position...

Brush housing at rear of motor, cleaned using compressed air. No lubrication added to shaft bearing/bush as these are often made from oil-sintered bronze/iron...


To remove the starter motor from the engine I followed the service manual instructions with a few minor additions:-

1.   Remove the seats.
2.   Disconnect & remove the battery - negative (black) lead first.
3.   Remove the lower & upper radiator panels.
4.   Remove the cockpit rear 2 inner screws (near to ignition switch). No need to remove the whole cockpit assembly nor the beak (if fitted), just remove the screws to allow some movement.
5.   Remove the fuel tank infill panels.
6.   Remove the fuel tank (disconnect fuel line, fuel pump & fuel sensor connectors).
7.   Loosen the clips and remove the rear suspension remote reservoir from the frame. This provides better access to the starter motor.
8.   Remove the air intake duct and airbox (disconnect the air intake sensor & MAP sensor & hose).
9.   Remove the throttle bodies (disconnect TPS, fuel injector and stepper motor plugs). No need to remove the throttle cables as the assembly can sit on a towel or similar on the cam cover.
10. Disconnect the coolant temperature sensor and low oil pressure warning light switch.
11. Remove the main cable from the terminal at the rear of the starter motor.
12. Remove the two bolts fixing the starter motor to the crankcase.
13. Ease the starter motor out through the left side of the frame (where the rear suspension reservoir mounts).


To dismantle the starter motor, I found it easiest to clamp it vertically in a bench vice (open shaft end upwards) using the two mounting tabs at the rear of the motor. Then I simply removed the two long screws that hold the motor together, being careful not to lose the small O-rings fitted to each screw. Once the screws were removed, I carefully eased the open end of the motor up the shaft and away from the main body. It should be possible to do this by hand but don't be tempted to use any sharp objects as you may damage the O-ring inside. Be sure not to lose the thin washer that's between the shaft and bearings.

Whilst applying a downwards force on the end of the motor shaft to hold it in position, the outer casing of the motor should now be carefully slid upwards. The magnets in the casing are strong and will want to pull the armature with it, but it's best to try to keep it in position at this stage otherwise you may cause damage to the brush assembly and commutator below.

Finally, because you now have good vision of the brush assembly end of the motor, the armature can be carefully lifted away. The commutator will slide gently up past the brushes that are in contact with it.

When removing the old brush assembly, be sure to remove as much solder as possible from the forked tab to ensure that the new assembly fits properly.
I couldn't find any torque specs for the two brush assembly screws so I checked them before removing the old ones. My torque wrench didn't quite go low enough to check properly, but they appeared to be tightened to somewhere under 3Nm. This is roughly what I used when assembling the new brush assembly back into the motor housing.

Once you've serviced your motor, reassembly is pretty-much a reversal of disassembly. Take note of the earlier photo showing toothpicks being used to hold the brushes clear of the commutator.
On my motor I applied a very small amount of petroleum jelly to the O-rings on the two motor end castings to ease reassembly. Be sure not to get any of this near the brushes or commutator.
The outer casing of the motor has an alignment indentation at one end which should slot between the spigots in the rear motor assembly.
It should be possible to fit the output end of the motor in either of two positions and still allow the long screws to be fitted. I didn't find any obvious alignment marks so just reassembled any way.

Before refitting the motor to the bike, I used jump leads to connect mine to the battery just to be sure that it was at least spinning. I used a long M6 bolt & nut to make the 0V connection to one of the rear mounting lugs and connected the +12V connection to the main electrical tab. I then just tapped the other ends of the leads to the battery while securing the starter motor to the bench.

As noted in the service manual, before fitting the motor back to the engine I applied a small amount of petroleum jelly to the O-ring on the motor output body. I then fed the motor back through the left side of the frame and carefully located it back into position in the crankcase. I then refitted all screws, connectors & hoses as I reassembled the throttle bodies, airbox, fuel tank etc, before starting the engine.
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: Aussie Trev on November 27, 2016, 07:41:16 PM
Hi all,

I think my 2011 800XC is experiencing some sort of starter problem too.  Over the last couple of years, when the motor is hot, if I stall the engine, on trying to restart it sounds as if the battery is dying, but later starts fine.  I'm running a new AGM battery which she has a drip feed charger on it.  Only done 30,000 kms or under 20,000 miles!

Gets frustrating when halfway up a hill with no turnaround option!!!

Any ideas from the brains trust in here??

Cheers
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: T800XC on November 27, 2016, 07:58:08 PM
That sure sounds similar to mine, before I dismantled, cleaned and fitted new brushes etc as noted above. It's been fine since I did that.
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: Aussie Trev on November 27, 2016, 09:49:25 PM
Thank you
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: Silent Mobius on December 11, 2016, 10:37:12 PM
Hi there to ypu all,

Very strange situation... in accordance with post 25 I tried to get some answers from www.al-electric.de about the part's to service our satrter motor and could not get positive  results...

my e-mail to them:

hello from Portugal,

I have a Triumph Tiger XC 800 2011 some problems when trying to start it When hot or after some miles.

The problem, is being pointed to the starter motor. I should clean it and change the brushes.

Did you sold any parts to any Tiger 800/800 XC riders? If so could you please tell the costs with post to.....

answer from all-electric:

Hello,
 
Do you have the P/N of your starter motor?
 
Thank you.

my answer to theme:

Hi there,

According to the website for Triumph> Tiger 800 XC parts its PKFL2151668.

I'm sending you the page link...

http://www.worldoftriumph.com/triumph_motorcycle_parts_locator.php?block_01=&block_02=100067497-0-2&block_03=560041

Hope that this will help you. Thank's again

With my regards,


they're answer to this e-mail:

none!

I tryed again and...

they're answer...

We cannot cross this P/N

 :232:

so... can any one help me with the part number they need so I can get a positive answer??

cheer's to yo all,

TigerMode800XC'er
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: chuckxc on December 11, 2016, 11:28:12 PM
 See my earlier post....

"Having now purchased a replacement starter motor from Triumph for too much money I believe there is probably a design or manufacturing defect in the original Denso starter motors, P/N 428000-5540, which have now been upgraded to -5542. I suspect it was in at least the Tiger 800XC 2011-2012 models, based on the forum reports."



..the part numbers for the Triumph motor old and new.....
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: chuckxc on December 11, 2016, 11:38:20 PM
Here are the old and new motor pics
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: Stevie.P on December 11, 2016, 11:55:50 PM
*Originally Posted by Silent Mobius [+]
The problem, is being pointed to the starter motor. I should clean it and change the brushes.

The (original post 25 as you know) information is earlier in the thread but if you use the part numbers from the posts just before yours by T800XC and put the part numbers he gives into the lefthand search box on the http://www.al-electric.de/ website they all come back as valid. For a complete starter motor you would need to contact them with the part number chuckxc gave you as the website only lists a starter motor for the Tiger up to 2008, so may not be up to date and they could probably help? If so keep us updated.
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: T800XC on December 12, 2016, 11:18:54 AM
*Originally Posted by Silent Mobius
Q...Do you have the P/N of your starter motor?
 
A:...According to the website for Triumph> Tiger 800 XC parts its PKFL2151668.

A:...We cannot cross this P/N


They wouldn't recognise that part number as it's World of Triumph's own stock reference. Others have now posted the correct Denso part number that you'll need to use at www.al-electric.de in order to get the correct repair parts. Mine was the older one, 428000-5540.

In answer to your PM, since the forum doesn't allow attachments to PMs I've attached an image below highlighting the location of the starter motor (left side of the engine).

Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: rubberdown on December 12, 2016, 07:15:50 PM
Are these the part numbers you require? from a different thread on here.

https://www.tiger800.co.uk/index.php/topic,11947.20.html
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: Rtwo on December 12, 2016, 07:25:56 PM
PKFL2151668 equates to Triumph Part number T1311112


Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: chuckxc on December 12, 2016, 08:38:57 PM
Yesterday I re-posted the photos of the old and new starter motors showing the Triumph part numbers, the -5540 being the older one that failed. If you order new brushes, I suggest you make sure they are not the same type of brushes as the ones used in  the  original -5540 version, otherwise you'll probably be doing this all over again in 30k km. I can only assume the -5542 version has corrected the fault but I don't know this for sure.
Sure wish Triumph and/or Denso would fess up, and pigs would fly.
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: Rtwo on December 12, 2016, 08:41:06 PM
5540 & 5542 are Denso part numbers, not Triumph

Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: chuckxc on December 13, 2016, 01:35:14 AM
Look closely, both the Triumph and the Denso numbers are shown in the photos. All you need to know is in the photos.
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: Silent Mobius on December 13, 2016, 07:57:01 PM
 :417:

Wanted to thank you T800XC as well as chuckxc, Stevie.P, rubberdown and Rtwo for the help and clarification. Cheer's to you all  :418:

TigerMode800XC'er
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: chuckxc on December 13, 2016, 10:35:20 PM
Let us know when you get the replacements and how  you go with the refurbishment.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: Silent Mobius on December 14, 2016, 07:45:32 PM
Will do so. in the meanwhile did you see this?

http://www.ebay.ie/itm/262506897386?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&fromMakeTrack=true

Too expensive don't you think? as seen on al-electirc the parts would cost us 28,62 euro :-p
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: chuckxc on December 15, 2016, 12:09:29 AM
My concern would be that this ebay item is the same as the faulty version. That's probably why it's on eBay.  You need to establish with Denso that you are getting the revised version.
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: zodillyicous on December 15, 2016, 06:13:51 AM
*Originally Posted by chuckxc [+]
My concern would be that this ebay item is the same as the faulty version. That's probably why it's on eBay.  You need to establish with Denso that you are getting the revised version.

An FYI when I was trying to diagnose some tiger issues I picked up a used starter motor off eBay.  I was traveling a lot for work so I ordered all the potential required parts to fix when I got back.  With a little research the tiger shares the same starter with other triumphs. Obviously an older/original version.  Gives you more options when searching.  I have that one sitting on a shelf somewhere if anyone is interested. It looks good, used, and I never tested/used.


 
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: OzDaz on December 20, 2016, 04:22:15 PM
Just wanted to add my thanks to all the help on this thread. My bike has suffered from this non start issue when it gets hot and asking around other threads I got all kinds of weird answers, none of them helpful until I finally came across this. I had checked everything else (cables, connections, battery, etc) but nothing seem to be at fault. I read this and bingo, I knew my 2011 roadie was one of the bikes affected by this. I started looking at used starter motors but only the later model 428000-5542 units but they all seem to run a couple of hundred bucks used. Then I started cross referencing part numbers and found that the 2013 onwards 675 starter motors would also work so I have purchased a low mileage unit online (got it for a shade under $70) and will report back once it arrives and gets fitted. Fingers crossed...
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: Silent Mobius on December 23, 2016, 10:25:38 PM
So as my Bike it's from April 2011 and according to all the search made by the felow Riders in here the part number for my starter will be T1310060 Denso part number 42000-5540.

I'll be asking for the folowing parts so I can service my starter motor:

                                  Denso  028530 - 5312 x2
                                  Denso  028530 - 5302 x1
                                  Denso 028152 - 5470 x1

Wishing you all a holy Christmas and A great new year,

 :418:

TigerMode800XC'er
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: Silent Mobius on December 27, 2016, 10:52:58 PM
Can any one help me with what to write on the spaces with question tag's... thank you all
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: Rtwo on December 28, 2016, 08:37:29 AM
You don't really need to put anything in those fields unless you want to.
If they are mandatory fields just put anything in them.


The additional Information is just that, if you need to add anything that isn't covered elsewhere
The order reference is primarily for companies that have to tie in orders with accounts etc.
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: T800XC on December 31, 2016, 02:17:07 PM
*Originally Posted by Silent Mobius [+]
So as my Bike it's from April 2011 and according to all the search made by the felow Riders in here the part number for my starter will be T1310060 Denso part number 42000-5540.

I'll be asking for the folowing parts so I can service my starter motor:

                                  Denso  028530 - 5312 x2
                                  Denso  028530 - 5302 x1
                                  Denso 028152 - 5470 x1

Wishing you all a holy Christmas and A great new year,

 :418:

TigerMode800XC'er
If you want to replace the brush-springs you'll need part number 949176-1230 (4 required).
If you need to replace the mounting screws, in case the heads get damaged when disassembling, you'll need part number 913700-4121 (2 required).

I reused my old springs & screws as they were in good condition but for the small cost it might be worth considering adding these to your order.



(I also added this info in my PM reply to you questions)
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: DaMonk45 on December 31, 2016, 06:48:52 PM
Good Info

I would order the springs and screws just because its   Me who is taking it apart.
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: Silent Mobius on December 31, 2016, 09:53:58 PM
*Originally Posted by DaMonk45 [+]
Good Info

I would order the springs and screws just because its   Me who is taking it apart.

I also thought on that but... till now didn't managed to break or destroy any piece or bit when dismantling any part of the Bike :-)

Having said that... it's always time for the first time and they're not that expensive ;-)

TigerMode800XC'er
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: DaMonk45 on January 01, 2017, 10:10:25 AM
Murphy is alive and well!

He lives in my shop part time. Where he goes when I am not working on my bike I have no clue.
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: Silent Mobius on January 01, 2017, 10:21:26 PM

I think it all depends on the hands and the patience you have to work with them ;-)


I've always been gifted so trust is not shy  :418:

TigerMode800XC'er
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: Silent Mobius on January 03, 2017, 06:49:32 PM
So and acording to some intersteing information I've gather the starter on our Tiger 800 XC (2011/2014) denso 428000-5540 T1311112 is the same fitted to the Street 675/ 675 R.

According to Triumph, this unit will also fit a

2007-2014 Triumph Street Triple 675

2008-2014 Triumph Street Triple R

2011-2014 Triumph Tiger 800

Am now waitting on the parts to service mine ;-)

Tiger800XC'er

2011-2014 Triumph Tiger 800XC
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: Silent Mobius on January 06, 2017, 04:07:26 PM
Being now waitting for the parts to servce my starter motor and with the few time free I've managed to get have been trying to read as much as I can about the problems on the starting circuit of our Tiger's  :155:


Something I've notoced on the shared cases in here it's that the one with the possible starter motor problems allways point that the startin issue only hapens on hot conditions...  :003:

On my case tough it really doesn't matter if it's hot or cold. After the first start (cold or hot temperatures surrounding the Bike) it always starts on first attempt with no issues at all but... no matter how many Km's I Ride It.... it will not start...sometimes even after 30 minutes of rest  :019:

In the meanwhile... if I hit the starter button right after having stoped the Bike... it startes with no problem  :006:

Could it be that my starting problems are realated with something else other that the startes  :033:

ps: will do no harm tough service the starter motor as the fail it's doomed in the near future right  :038:

TigerMode800XC'er
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: Silent Mobius on January 11, 2017, 11:01:32 PM
Quick up date:

So... my parts just arriced :-)
Total: 47,27

Can't wait to put my hands on the job ;-)

 :418: :418:

TigerMode800XC'er/color]
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: chuckxc on January 12, 2017, 12:33:41 AM
 Thanks for the update, let us know how you go with the installation.
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: babaji on February 26, 2017, 05:24:41 AM
I need to do mine too. It will be the second time on my 2012 800xc. First time was was under warranty, this time my dealer requested goodwill from Triumph to replace it again out of warranty, but no love from triumph North America.

Same problem, would not start after riding around in stop and go conditions on warm days. After a cooling off period it would start right up. It has been deteriorating rapidly and the problem is getting worse and worse. It got to the point where a cooling period was not always enough. I found that if i put it in gear and held the clutch in while running alongside the bike, i could let go of the clutch and force the motor to bump forward a little, then it would start. Not sure if i just had to get it past TDC? But I used this trick a few times even when cooling off seemingly was not helping me.

As another forum member posted I too have lately also heard my started continuing to spin after starting during one of the episodes.

Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: AvgBear on February 26, 2017, 05:22:31 PM
*Originally Posted by babaji [+]
As another forum member posted I too have lately also heard my started continuing to spin after starting during one of the episodes.
If your starter continues to spin after starting, the engine is spinning the electric starter motor and contributing to wearing it out prematurely. This can only be caused by a bad sprag -- the chain-driven one-way clutch-type device behind the alternator stator.
Faulty sprags can be contributed to in various ways: too heavy a viscosity oil (especially in cold climates); incorrect motor oil or motor oil slippery-ness additives; attempting starting with lower than optimum battery voltage; and, maybe?, just a faulty component.
Once the sprag surfaces are damaged / marred, the clutch becomes more and more reluctant to release when crankshaft speed exceeds starter-drive speed -- thus causing the engine to spin the starter.
Needs inspection and diagnosis...
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: babaji on February 26, 2017, 05:54:47 PM
thanks for the info, sounds like it is a fair bit more complicated than just removing the starter.  I have been saving this for my big service. I will be getting a closer look once I tear it down for service

I am assuming it is caused by the hot conditions, as I only have seen it occur during recovery from one  of these heat induced non starting episodes. It has never happened before during normal operation.
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: AvgBear on February 26, 2017, 06:38:05 PM
You're welcome.
After saying all that, seems I focused on the "mechanical"..? I guess the starter could also keep running after start-up if electrically told to do so..?
If the starter switch hung-up, the starter solenoid stuck "on", or there was a wiring fault..?
Good luck with your diagnosis.
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: Rtwo on February 26, 2017, 06:41:58 PM
It's worth pulling out the solenoid from under the battery and checking that as it's a quite easy (if fiddly) task.
It doesn't sound related to your issue but not worth ignoring before you pull out the starter.

Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: babaji on February 26, 2017, 08:44:32 PM
Yes, I have read some posts (likely on this forum) of someone 'fixing' his starter issues at the selenoid (corroded connections, if i remember correctly). I went hunting for it once, did not locate it easily and gave up. Do you have to remove the battery tray to expose it?
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: Rtwo on February 26, 2017, 08:47:32 PM
No, just remove the battery and then employ someone with small hands :)

Pics on this thread
https://www.tiger800.co.uk/index.php?topic=4035.90

Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: babaji on February 26, 2017, 09:28:45 PM
Thanks for the link. I will read the whole thread. What do you think I should be looking for with the selenoid in regards to the starting issues. What it a corroded wire lead or fuse receptacle?
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: Rtwo on February 26, 2017, 09:36:56 PM
Any sort of corrosion or lose connection.
I suspect you will see corrosion but whether or not that would cause your symptoms, I'm not sure.

 
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: skydso on March 21, 2017, 10:10:15 PM
what's the big deal of pulling out the starter? I pulled it out without removing anything but the rear shock reservoir right above it to give me enough space to work!
I now ordered the 4452 as my 2011 XC gave me the same starting issues and all my contacts are spotless with also a new AGM battery.
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: chuckxc on March 22, 2017, 01:11:15 AM
https://www.tiger800.co.uk/index.php/topic,11947.msg206333.html#msg206333
This post might help you.
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: Rtwo on March 22, 2017, 05:15:32 AM
*Originally Posted by skydso [+]
what's the big deal of pulling out the starter? I pulled it out without removing anything but the rear shock reservoir right above it to give me enough space to work!
I now ordered the 4452 as my 2011 XC gave me the same starting issues and all my contacts are spotless with also a new AGM battery.

There is no big deal, as there's no big deal pulling the air box throttle bodies off
If you're hands are small enough and you're happy to work in the space available, go for it.

Personally, I like as much room and visibility to work as is reasonably possible.
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: skydso on March 22, 2017, 06:13:33 AM
Yes of course, I prefer it as well. But I hate having to rip half the bike apart if I can manage without having to.

 

Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: skydso on March 24, 2017, 07:31:37 AM
So, I turned the commutator on a lathe and cleaned it. I also ordered the parts as listed here earlier in this thread.
Now I also ordered the -4452 starter.
My question is, does the same list of parts (part numbers) apply for the -4452 as well just like the -4450?
Coz if so, since it will be already out of the bike, I may as well service it too before fitting it and put my mind at rest about it.
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: digger06 on March 24, 2017, 08:52:35 AM
If you do service it, do a few pics and a how to. Always handy
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: Rtwo on March 24, 2017, 08:57:38 AM
Like this?

https://www.tiger800.co.uk/index.php/topic,11947.30.html

Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: skydso on March 24, 2017, 10:58:48 AM
Yes, that's where I got the part numbers, and ordered them from the same site

 

Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: digger06 on March 24, 2017, 02:08:38 PM
*Originally Posted by Rtwo [+]
Like this?

https://www.tiger800.co.uk/index.php/topic,11947.30.html

thankyou, most useful....
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: macintosh on May 07, 2017, 06:10:39 PM
Is starter motor from newer Tiger version (2014 and up) suitable for older Tiger (2011...2013)?

Codes:
* Older: Denso 428000-5540; Triumph T1310060
* Newer: Denso 428000-5542; Triumph T1311112
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: Nelizzz on May 08, 2017, 07:37:05 PM
*Originally Posted by skydso [+]
what's the big deal of pulling out the starter? I pulled it out without removing anything but the rear shock reservoir right above it to give me enough space to work!
I now ordered the 4452 as my 2011 XC gave me the same starting issues and all my contacts are spotless with also a new AGM battery.
How did you do this? I have small hands, but...
Can you shed some light
Thanks

 

Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: skydso on May 08, 2017, 10:46:40 PM
*Originally Posted by Nelizzz [+]
How did you do this? I have small hands, but...
Can you shed some light
Thanks

 
I am replying from the bedroom so I cannot take photos!
However, if you scroll back a few pages you will find my post regarding putting the starter back in place.
You'll need the same tools I used, or similar.
First step is to remove the rear shock reservoir from its mounting place under the frame and push it out of the way. Unplug the battery. Then you undo the starter power line which is right on top, using an 8mm ring spanner/ratchet. Then undo the two mounting bolts behind the starter. You need a uj attached to the end of some 14" extension to reach comfortably behind the starter.
The front bolt is relatively easy to unscrew, but the rear one has a steel block connector holder which is held by the bolt itself. This won't let you undo the bolt too easily. So first I unclipped the block connector, then I unscrewed the bolt.
Once this second bolt is out, you pry the starter away from its place by pushing a fat flat screwdriver or a chisel between it and the engine casing where it goes in. It will literally pop out of place. You push it further in till the whole shaft is out of its hole, twist the whole starter clockwise by some 30 and just pul it out.
You now have the starter out of the engine and in your hands  (https://www.tiger800.co.uk/Smileys/tiger/038.gif)  


 

Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: Nelizzz on May 09, 2017, 08:56:35 AM
*Originally Posted by skydso [+]
I am replying from the bedroom so I cannot take photos!
However, if you scroll back a few pages you will find my post regarding putting the starter back in place.
You'll need the same tools I used, or similar.
First step is to remove the rear shock reservoir from its mounting place under the frame and push it out of the way. Unplug the battery. Then you undo the starter power line which is right on top, using an 8mm ring spanner/ratchet. Then undo the two mounting bolts behind the starter. You need a uj attached to the end of some 14" extension to reach comfortably behind the starter.
The front bolt is relatively easy to unscrew, but the rear one has a steel block connector holder which is held by the bolt itself. This won't let you undo the bolt too easily. So first I unclipped the block connector, then I unscrewed the bolt.
Once this second bolt is out, you pry the starter away from its place by pushing a fat flat screwdriver or a chisel between it and the engine casing where it goes in. It will literally pop out of place. You push it further in till the whole shaft is out of its hole, twist the whole starter clockwise by some 30 and just pul it out.
You now have the starter out of the engine and in your hands  (https://www.tiger800.co.uk/Smileys/tiger/038.gif)  


 

Not interested in bedroom pics  :156:
Thanks for the write-up, learned a new english word "uj" (abbreviation universal joint? not sure), google was my friend.

So, and let me guess, to put it all back in place, you need to remove the tank, airbox etc  :492:


Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: skydso on May 09, 2017, 08:59:21 AM
*Originally Posted by Nelizzz [+]
Not interested in bedroom pics  :156:
Thanks for the write-up, learned a new english word "uj" (abbreviation universal joint? not sure), google was my friend.

So, and let me guess, to put it all back in place, you need to remove the tank, airbox etc  :492:
No, just look up my post on here earlier, this time with pics OF THE BIKE IN THE GARAGE! No bedroom involved!  (https://www.tiger800.co.uk/Smileys/tiger/004.gif)  
It's basically the reversal of the whole process. Look it up, it might help you.
And yes, uj stands for universal joint  (https://www.tiger800.co.uk/Smileys/tiger/038.gif)  

 
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: skydso on May 09, 2017, 09:01:17 AM
It must be in another thread ... look up my username and you will find it

 
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: skydso on May 09, 2017, 09:03:36 AM
*Originally Posted by skydso [+]
No, just look up my post on here earlier, this time with pics OF THE BIKE IN THE GARAGE! No bedroom involved!  (https://www.tiger800.co.uk/Smileys/tiger/004.gif)  
It's basically the reversal of the whole process. Look it up, it might help you.
And yes, uj stands for universal joint  (https://www.tiger800.co.uk/Smileys/tiger/038.gif)  

 
Here it is ...
http://www.tiger800.co.uk/index.php?topic=21201.new;topicseen#new

 

Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: Nelizzz on May 09, 2017, 10:38:57 AM
Thanks Skydso,
putting it back in was not that easy apparently, but the process is very clear from your pictures!
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: skydso on May 09, 2017, 01:36:57 PM
*Originally Posted by Nelizzz [+]
Thanks Skydso,
putting it back in was not that easy apparently, but the process is very clear from your pictures!
Thanks ...
Being honest it wasn't a hair pulling, nerve wrecking issue, but no, not just a walk in the park. You'll be swearing at your tools and the little bolts falling behind the starter where you can't see them but can only get them with the magnet! LOL!  (https://www.tiger800.co.uk/Smileys/tiger/004.gif)  
Good luck, but don't give up. It can be done with only little hassles  (https://www.tiger800.co.uk/Smileys/tiger/038.gif)  

 

Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: AvgBear on June 28, 2017, 08:18:48 PM
*Originally Posted by Manxytiger [+]
I was having intermittent starting problems with my 2012 Tiger 800 last week. Battery checked out ok, turns out the starter motor is knackered. Fortunately it's still under warranty, but it seems awfully young for this to happen. Has anyone else experienced a failed starter motor?
After reading thru again (and trying to pay attention...), I end up with a few conclusions:
Apparently, the original T800 starter motor - from Denso - was inferior (in design or construction).
It's the same starter motor as used in Triumph's 675cc models.
Although the T800 may have a bigger battery than 675s, it may need an even bigger/more powerful one?
The purpose of the battery is to store energy for use in: Starter, Lights, Ignition (generally -- automotive use). Once running, the engine's alternator provides the electrical energy.
If the engine won't crank/rotate by battery/starter motor - and all else is in proper fettle? - then either the starter motor or the battery (or, a little of both?) are at fault.
Barring the arrival of a higher-powered starter motor, a higher powered battery may be the answer?

Electric motor power decreases with heat, a motor that spins slowly requires more amperage to get the job done, increased motor load decreases B+, decreased battery voltage requires increased amperage to do the job, increased amperage creates more heat in the motor -- and on and on.
The poster who bumped his engine over TDC to get it to spin and start was on that track. Had he had a voltmeter to record B+ with the starter motor engaged might be telling? Had he attempted to jump-start with a bigger/higher-capacity battery might also be telling?

Modern Li-Ion batteries offer many advantages, among them: higher at-rest voltage and more cranking amperage (for same size or smaller). It would be interesting to know if a T800 fitted with a Li-Ion battery ever had a starter failure?
It may well be that: always high voltage present as well as plenty of amperage (power) may spin the starter motor sufficiently fast enough to save it from self-destruction (and always start the engine...)?
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: babaji on June 28, 2017, 08:51:08 PM
That was me bumping it past TDC, but eventually that also stopped working

brought it to an electric motor re builder, he cut me some new brushes to size (using a grinder) and turned the commutator on a lathe, that's it that's all,  $125 CAD

works better than new, took it down-town Toronto into stop and go traffic, got it good and fricken hot, bike was almost burning my loins, stopped the engine and immediately fired it back up, FIXED ! :028:
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: chuckxc on June 29, 2017, 01:41:41 AM
Once again, the reason for the starter motor failures is  prematurely worn brushes.
Plenty of posts on the symptoms and solution. It's seldom a battery issue.
Pic here.
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: digger06 on June 29, 2017, 09:11:42 AM
*Originally Posted by AvgBear [+]


Modern Li-Ion batteries offer many advantages, among them: higher at-rest voltage and more cranking amperage (for same size or smaller). It would be interesting to know if a T800 fitted with a Li-Ion battery ever had a starter failure?

Li-on batterys are ok in warm climates, cold weather kills em despite claims to the opposite, we did a lot of testing with these where i work, and were not used for that reason, the marketing of Li-on batterys is better than the item itself
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: Aussie Trev on August 11, 2017, 07:40:03 AM
A mate and I have 800xc Tigers both of which are experiencing this problem  He's stripped his and the starter looks exactly like you've all described.  We're going to try and soure the parts here in Oz but has anyone tried the eBay option posted by Silent Mobius??
Cheers guys.
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: chuckxc on August 14, 2017, 09:41:57 AM
I've been following this thread since the start and Silent Mobius has been the only one who I am aware of that  has been able to find a source for the Denso brushes. From memory around 80 Euro. It will also be necessary for you or someone with a lathe to cut the commutator and clean out the gaps with a bit of hacksaw blade. Any auto electric shop can do this for not much $.
Only other option I know of is to bite the bullet and buy a new motor, ouch. I was short on time and bought one from Peter Stevens in Melbourne.
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: Aussie Trev on August 15, 2017, 11:06:08 AM
Thanks.  We reckon we can get them but we're thinking the unit on eBay might be the go.  We'll let everyone know how we go.  Cheers
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: CSAW on August 15, 2017, 12:36:05 PM
I ordered mine from https://www.finditparts.com
search by part number.  I bought what is listed below.  I bought enough to do it twice.  Their prices aren't bad but the shipping and handling is.  Brushes come in a bag of 10.  Don't know if they ship over seas but would imagine the do.  My total was $36.29

Denso 028512-5470 isolator x2
Denso 028530-5302 holder x2
Denso 028530-5312 brush x10

Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: Rtwo on August 15, 2017, 04:16:17 PM
*Originally Posted by chuckxc [+]
I've been following this thread since the start and Silent Mobius has been the only one who I am aware of that  has been able to find a source for the Denso brushes. From memory around 80 Euro. It will also be necessary for you or someone with a lathe to cut the commutator and clean out the gaps with a bit of hacksaw blade. Any auto electric shop can do this for not much $.
Only other option I know of is to bite the bullet and buy a new motor, ouch. I was short on time and bought one from Peter Stevens in Melbourne.

If you look back to post #25 on this thread, Tikru found a supplier for around 25

https://www.tiger800.co.uk/index.php/topic,11947.20.html
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: chuckxc on August 16, 2017, 05:34:04 AM
It was Tikru's post #26
The link is:

 http://www.al-electric.de/

(Don't forget cost of postage too)
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: Aussie Trev on August 16, 2017, 07:57:08 AM
Thanks, the eBay units found on this thread are not available so we've ordered the others bits as posted.  All good.   PBee's all over it and both bikes will be singing again soon and the starter motors will be better than the originals.  Cheers
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: bigmankz on August 23, 2017, 09:48:28 AM
Finally found time to get ot my starter. Here's what happened to mine. The brushes are gone and fell apart at disassembly. Bad thing is that they did a large groove on the rotor :( I ordered the brushes part from Germany but it got lost in mail somewhere. Not sure if the rotor part can by fixed :( Looks like I need to get a brand new starter. 400 dollars out of the pocket. Why are the starters are so expensive being much smaller that the ones for cars? :)

BTW, the starter on my Tiger is off later 5542 Denso part. I have 50000 km on my bike.
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: KildareMan on August 23, 2017, 12:05:07 PM
Rotor can probably be skimmed on a lathe.
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: chuckxc on August 23, 2017, 12:31:15 PM
Your brushes and commutator look awful. Similar to mine and others on the forum. That groove is pretty deep, might be worth having an auto electrician assess it to see if there will be enough copper after the lathe I think I would just buy a replacement motor and get back to riding. Agree, it's way too expensive but other optons aren't much better.
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: bigmankz on August 23, 2017, 12:55:28 PM
I do agree that this doe not look good. I was just wondering why the heck this strter is so weak that it wears off in only 50k kilometers? its not like I sed starter all the time. Not more often than I use it in may car. Any advice on the cheapest place to purchase new starter online? I used bike bandit many times for other OEM parts and they seem to have goo prices. But still over 400 bucks for a small starter seems like too much. :) plus shipping plus labour. :) oh well. The tiger served me good all these years. I think some new parts will be a decent tratment for the bike :)
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: chuckxc on August 23, 2017, 01:09:38 PM
You could save some money by putting  it in yourself. Plenty of picture help on the forum. Not too difficult.
$400 is the best price I've seen yet.
 
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: Timalan on September 01, 2017, 04:19:16 PM
Are the brush part numbers etc the same for the later starter? Mine is 2014 and now has this issue
Thanks
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: Turbo100 on September 01, 2017, 05:31:45 PM
I have skimmed many dozens of commutators. From what I can see in your picture I think it very likely it will machine up okay. It looks worse than it is. Anybody with a small lathe will be able to do it, not too fast a speed, sharp cutting tool and take slow small amounts off on each pass, probably about 6 or 7 passes. Try it, nothing to lose, its scrap at the moment.
When it has been machined you will need to undercut the insulation between each copper segment. Best thing for this is a 12" hacksaw blade, grind the first 1" off the blade MUST be so the end that you remove the teeth of the blade face away from it,  and us the very first tooth of the blade to undercut and score the insulation away between each segment, take off about 0.010", ( 10 or 12 thou ) don't rush it, will take you about 30 mins to do it correctly
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: bigmankz on November 23, 2017, 09:20:58 AM
Just a small update. The starter rotor machined off ok. The tech guy said it will be ok for another 30-40k km if the brush material is the same. If its better then it may work a bit longer. It was great that the someone took an effort and found that website in Germany who sells Denso small parts. :)   
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: charrito on February 12, 2018, 12:19:44 AM
Hey everyone, adding to the oldest thread with the biggest problem.  For those of us in the US, I found the parts locally at finditparts.com.  Just use the same numbers that are on the German site.  Hope this helps, at least a little cheaper with the shipping.  The only thing is the brushes come in packs of 10 pieces, so I'll have a few left over.
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: BarryW on February 27, 2018, 02:10:33 PM
Thanks Charrito, I'm a newb to the board and also from TX. My 2016 XC with only 2,300 miles on it has already started exhibiting intermittent hot-start failures. Took it to the dealer recently and they said they couldn't duplicate the failure and suspected the battery was just low so they topped it off. I rode it home, stalled it as I pulled into my garage, and it did it again! I've not been able to duplicate it on demand and have probably tried 20 times since then without a failure to start. Very frustrating to deal with intermittent issues, but glad to have found so many good resources for solving the issue. Hope Triumph has caught wind of this and given Denso hell, it really taints the brand IMO. :023:
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: chuckxc on February 27, 2018, 08:52:53 PM
If yours is a 2016 XC and 2300 miles it couldn't be the starter motor problem we have encountered on the earlier models (2011/2012).
Most likely it could have been a low battery, But also, occasionally after a stall, my XC will fail to turn over on the next start. A few tries and it's back again. I suspect it has something to do with the resudial compression left after an abrupt stop. A characteristic of the XC. Not to worry.
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: tauzero on February 27, 2018, 10:25:39 PM
Also worth checking your battery connections are nice and tight.
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: BarryW on February 27, 2018, 11:59:53 PM
Although the dealer claims to have load tested the battery, topped off the charge and heat cycled the bike, I think cleaning connectors, including at the starter is the next step. It has tripped a warning code both times it has occurred which the dealer said was a low (<5V) voltage threshold measured at some location. Oddly, when it's behaving badly the headlight doesn't dim when the starter button is pressed and the starter is either laboring or has given up altogether.
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: chuckxc on February 28, 2018, 01:04:51 AM
*Originally Posted by BarryW [+]
Oddly, when it's behaving badly the headlight doesn't dim when the starter button is pressed and the starter is either laboring or has given up altogether.

Hey BarryW, the Tiger is wired so that the headlight is switched off by relay when the starter is engaged. If this is not the case, as it seems from your last post, then you need to check that out. The headlight and starter motor should not be on together--one or the other.
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: BarryW on February 28, 2018, 02:40:05 AM
chuckxc,
 I just checked and the light I had remembered is not actually a headlight but rather the small bulb between the two headlights called a position light bulb in the manual. The two headlights do indeed stay off during cranking as you've stated. What I discovered tonight though is the position bulb does dim when the starter is working properly. The behaviors I've observed could be caused by the pushbutton switch, but the intermittent nature of the problem make it difficult to pinpoint.
Title: Re: Starter Motor
Post by: Rtwo on February 28, 2018, 06:37:54 AM
Have a look at the starter solenoid under the battery. I've heard of that going intermittent before failing
Although it's usually a symptom of dampness getting in and staying in, not something I would naturally associate with Texas (but what do I know of Texas?)