Triumph Tiger 800 Forum

Tiger 800 / 900 - Main Discussion Section => Suspension and Chassis Set-up and Mods => Topic started by: Derchef1962 on September 11, 2021, 05:51:51 PM

Title: front wheel "jumping" on bad roads
Post by: Derchef1962 on September 11, 2021, 05:51:51 PM
Hi there,

it started a couple of weeks ago: my 2013 Tiger roadie gives me trouble from the front wheel, on bad roads I feel every road bump quite strong, it's much better on better roads like a motorway and and on higher speeds.

I had the front fork springs swapped for Wilbers progressive springs years ago and was always quite happy with it. Now - I am in France at the moment in Alsace and the Vosges - it is sometimes quite hard to keep the bike on the road.

someone in the group I am riding with at the moment suggest a worn wheel bearing but from what I now if that bearing is shot it's worse with higher speeds which is not happening in my case.

Any ideas?

Fork seems to be ok no oil leaking etc.

I get the bike to my trusted mechanic next week but as they say the suspense is killing me.
Title: Re: front wheel "jumping" on bad roads
Post by: AvgBear on September 11, 2021, 05:58:13 PM
Early T800 Roadies were known to have too much compression damping in the front forks. One of the easiest remedies was to change the fork oil to lighter/lower viscosity fork oil.
I ended-up (after several changes) with the lowest viscosity I could find and have nice plush front suspension and no negative results.
Title: Re: front wheel "jumping" on bad roads
Post by: Derchef1962 on September 11, 2021, 06:06:20 PM
Well I know that factory wise the front fork of Gen. 1 Tigers were overdamped that's the reason I had the springs and the oil changed in 2013 and that improved the ride significantly.

But how come it's bad now after all these years?
Title: Re: front wheel "jumping" on bad roads
Post by: AvgBear on September 11, 2021, 06:26:46 PM
*Originally Posted by Derchef1962 [+]
Gen. 1 Tigers were overdamped that's the reason I had the springs and the oil changed in 2013 and that improved the ride significantly.
But how come it's bad now after all these years?
Well, I'm no suspension expert -- but, changing the front springs wouldn't have had much effect on the damping problem -- other than (softer springs) making it worse, if anything.
Changing the fork oil may've helped, depending on quantity / quality / etc.?
And, perhaps you've finally discovered a road surface your previous set-up just could not handle?
Also, oils / lubricants (like everything else) oxidize -- get older / used / worn. When oils oxidize they get thicker / more viscous -- maybe a fork oil change will help solve your problem?
Title: Re: front wheel "jumping" on bad roads
Post by: Derchef1962 on September 11, 2021, 09:33:39 PM
Yep you got a point, I let them check the wheel bearing if that is all right change of fork oil. If that doesn't help I am clueless
Title: Re: front wheel "jumping" on bad roads
Post by: AvgBear on September 11, 2021, 09:58:12 PM
IME, worn/bad wheel bearings can cause the wheel to wobble and can often be fairly easily detected by rotating the wheel (when off the ground) by feel, sight, and sound.
As to a front suspension issue: you may want to check the front springs sag -- both static and loaded?
Springs are manufactured with a certain amount of energy infused within the steel and, over time & use, some energy can be lost.
Often termed "sacking" -- time, use, weight load, etc. all can affect spring energy loss.
If your springs have "sacked" over time then the softer springs may tend to make the damping feel even stiffer/harsher.
Title: Re: front wheel "jumping" on bad roads
Post by: K1W1 on September 12, 2021, 01:06:14 AM
*Originally Posted by AvgBear [+]
IME, worn/bad wheel bearings can cause the wheel to wobble and can often be fairly easily detected by rotating the wheel (when off the ground) by feel, sight, and sound.

Get the front wheel off the ground and have somebody hold the steering one way or the other against the steering lock and grab the front wheel at 3 and 9 o’clock and wobble it side to side. If you can feel movement the bearings are shot.
Check the steering head bearing while you are at it. Front wheel in the air pull the wheel forward to see if there is movement and rotate the handlebars side to side to feel for anything other that smooth rotation.
You should also just check to make sure that the axle is correctly tightened. Who knows maybe one of the bolts might have come a little undone.
The only other thing I can think of is maybe one of the fork damping valves has failed, got blocked with a small piece of something or similar. If it was my bike I think I would be assuming that I would be up for a front end rebuild the only real question would be working out exactly what was required and that could involve somebody taking the forks apart.
 
Title: Re: front wheel "jumping" on bad roads
Post by: fac191 on September 12, 2021, 08:30:29 AM
Hi Derchef, i had Wilbers springs put in my 2012 Roadie forks and a Wilbers shock made to suit. They also drilled an extra hole to allow more oil to flow. This cured the front end. MCT Suspension, Stowmarket, England.
Title: Re: front wheel "jumping" on bad roads
Post by: Derchef1962 on September 13, 2021, 10:23:09 AM
Thanks for your replies, bike is booked for the garage end of the week. After what you have said I do not think the bearing is the culprit. On good roads the problem is not that big. The whole front dampening setup feels very hard, so either the springs are shot, the oil gone bad or something else is wrong there.

I'll keep it posted
Title: Re: front wheel "jumping" on bad roads
Post by: mcinlb on September 14, 2021, 03:49:35 PM
Derchef1962 ,

I had a 2013 Roadie as my first Tiger, and found exactly the same as you, "very harsh" front end..

I tried progressive springs to start but as mentioned this did not help with the damping, eventually I fitted new internals for the early 800's and this transformed the bike, I later also fitted a rear shock and again much better handling as all was now tailored to my weight and riding style, well worth the money in the long run.
Oh and the same rear shock went onto my next tiger , an XRX 3rd Gen tiger, fitted straight on, and I got half the money back for the shock when I sold the Tiger 800..
All good...
Title: Re: front wheel "jumping" on bad roads
Post by: Derchef1962 on September 14, 2021, 06:08:01 PM
Guys, thanks for your interesting replies but...

may I remind you that until 2 or 3 months ago I was quite happy with the front fork equipped with Wilbers progressive springs and lighter fork oil. It wasn't perfect but fairly allright for me.

Only within the last two or three months I have noticed that "jumping" and the feeling there is no dampening at all from the front sometimes.
 
In other words: if it was ok for the last 87,000 kms what has f*cked up now to give me trouble?

The wheel bearing is a suspect but from what I have read if that is shot the wobbeling gets worse at higher speeds which it doesn't in my case. It is really worst going downhill at 70 or 80 kmph trying to slow down. The bike is like a kangaroo then especially when the road is bad.

Springs finally gave in? possible but not very likely... Oil gone to thick, that would explain the behaviour but is that likely...

oh well the suspense is still killing me.

I promised that Tiger that we stay together till death does part us... but if it keeps on like this it gets the coupe de grace sooner or later..
Title: Re: front wheel "jumping" on bad roads
Post by: fac191 on September 14, 2021, 07:19:26 PM
Has the fork oil been refreshed ?
Title: Re: front wheel "jumping" on bad roads
Post by: chuckxc on September 14, 2021, 09:11:09 PM
Sometimes loose or worn heads stem bearings can give the feeling of worn shocks.
Title: Re: front wheel "jumping" on bad roads
Post by: Derchef1962 on September 23, 2021, 10:14:34 PM
well I come back to you all as I personally hate threads where someone posts technical problems and everyone tries to find a solution and then the thread is dead as the op stops posting.

Apparently the problem was caused by a worn tyre or that's at least what the garage guys say. Quite a surprise to me as this is the first time this happens to me after several PR 5 trail tyres. Wheel bearing, the wheel itself and the head stem bearing seem to be ok.

I'll pick up the bike tomorrow and will test it next week as I am off to Northern Germany by car on the weekend.
I'll keep you posted.


Funny side story: over here a 100/90 front tyre is in the papers, no PR 5 trail available in that dimension. Over years it was accepted by the authorities over here to put on aPR 5 or 4 with 110/80 as Michelin said in his documentatio that this perfectly allright for the bike. But no, since beginning of this year the almighty German TüV says: f*ck what Michelin says they know nothing about tyres (of course and why should they, they are only making the tyres and why should the manufacturer have any idea about what he produces) you either use the tyre in the papers (and I the almighty TÜV don't give a f*ck that there almost no 100/90 tyres on the market) or you get the specific tyre you want on your bike approved by our experts (the ones testing bikes on the backyard with a 50 quid helmet and have no idea how to ride the bike) and you take that approval to the competent government authority and get it printed in the papers. Hey stop complaining about the 50 Euros this is going to cost you it's all about your safety and of course this is due to European law

to quote a famous German painter from the early 30s of the last century: I cannot eat enough to throw up as often as I want to.

In general I have my doubts whether that Brexit thing was as very good idea, especially that now we have to deal with the froggies on our own without you British, but things like force me to re-thing that.
Title: Re: front wheel "jumping" on bad roads
Post by: tauzero on September 24, 2021, 12:47:24 AM
Gexit wouldn't help you, TUV is German not an EU body.
Title: Re: front wheel "jumping" on bad roads
Post by: Derchef1962 on September 24, 2021, 07:14:28 AM
*Originally Posted by tauzero [+]
Gexit wouldn't help you, TUV is German not an EU body.

oh yes and they are 180% German absoulutely no sense of humour...
Title: Re: front wheel "jumping" on bad roads
Post by: Paulhere on September 24, 2021, 07:49:35 AM
I had something similar many years ago, the tyre had gone out of round. Had it rebalanced couple of times before I found the cause.
Title: Re: front wheel "jumping" on bad roads
Post by: mcinlb on September 24, 2021, 08:36:54 AM
About 110/80 T900 tyres, I asked the dealer to fit  PR5 tyres to my new T900 for collection, no problem they said. Then I get a call to say Triumph have not OK'd the fitting of 110/80 tyres on this model, having previously OK'd them for the T800.

So I got them to fit the Metzler 01's (100/90 front and appropriate back). AND I was/am delighted with these fitted, now on my second pair and will continue to use them, very confidence inspiring wet and dry..