Triumph Tiger 800 Forum

Tiger 800 / 900 - Main Discussion Section => General Maintenance and Servicing => Topic started by: JonesTheBass on September 24, 2017, 12:36:47 PM

Title: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: JonesTheBass on September 24, 2017, 12:36:47 PM
I'm due the 12k service (done ~11k over 28 months). The manual states valve clearance check but this sounds early and I'm getting some mixed messages from the dealer. A valve check on my last bike, Honda CBF1000, at 16k miles showed no need and most owners wait until the 24k or 32k service.
Other factor is quoted cost as ~£500, plus another £100 if any shimming needs to be done! :114:

Experience and advise welcome!
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: Rtwo on September 24, 2017, 12:43:48 PM
Yes, check them

Lots of bikes need shim adjustment at the 12K point and then not again for quite a while

Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: Cats on September 24, 2017, 02:07:44 PM
Definitely.
I do my own servicing and at the 12000 mile service, actually 13000, I found 5 valves needed adjustment.
If you can do it yourself, do so. You know it's been done then and not hoping that the stealer did actually do it.
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: Tigerider on September 24, 2017, 03:10:44 PM
It's not worth the risk to not have them checked....& yes, you could get up to 24k mls with no mechanical failure, but what would the cost be if your money saving scheme went wrong.

l just had mine done at 13k & only one exhaust valve needed checking, it cost me *$230 at a local qualified independent mechanic but my motto is "Better Safe Than Sorry!"

*about 170 quid!
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: Alunr on September 24, 2017, 03:32:24 PM
*Originally Posted by JonesTheBass [+]
I'm due the 12k service (done ~11k over 28 months). The manual states valve clearance check but this sounds early and I'm getting some mixed messages from the dealer. A valve check on my last bike, Honda CBF1000, at 16k miles showed no need and most owners wait until the 24k or 32k service.
Other factor is quoted cost as ~£500, plus another £100 if any shimming needs to be done! :114:

Experience and advise welcome!

If you don't want to do it yourself or pay dealer prices, I would recommend David Muddy Sump. He did my 12k service, including checking valve clearances, for well under that price. Thoroughly recommend him.
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: AvgBear on September 24, 2017, 05:41:14 PM
*Originally Posted by JonesTheBass [+]
Experience and advise welcome!
*Originally Posted by Tigerider [+]
It's not worth the risk to not have them checked....& yes, you could get up to 24k mls with no mechanical failure, but what would the cost be if your money saving scheme went wrong.
A contrarian view:
Whilst it's certainly nice to have a well-tuned and adjusted engine, no mechanical failure is likely to occur from incorrect valve clearances.
The normal sequence of events (if they happen at-all?) is for the valve clearances to decrease over time along with a small decrease (but, maybe not noticeable?) in engine performance.
Ultimately, the engine's valves and valve seats will wear to the point of needing replacement/resurfacing after many tens-of-thousands of miles and years of use -- whether kept in proper adjustment, or not.
In the automotive world, engines with shim & bucket valve clearance adjustment are ubiquitous -- and, checking/adjustment largely ignored.

Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: johnnyboy101 on September 24, 2017, 05:52:52 PM
+1 for muddy sump. I was quoted 700 quid for 12,000 service from dealer !! Muddy sump a lot cheaper than that and a very professional service
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: dunkymunky on September 24, 2017, 06:46:26 PM
My Triumph dealer told me not to do them!

It's now coming up to the 24k service and the engine sounds like a bag of spanners.

I would get them done for sure!
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: Tigerider on September 24, 2017, 10:56:49 PM
*Originally Posted by AvgBear [+]
A contrarian view:
Whilst it's certainly nice to have a well-tuned and adjusted engine, no mechanical failure is likely to occur from incorrect valve clearances.
A contrarian contrarian view......Yes it is!
https://repairpal.com/valve-clearance-check-adjust
https://itstillruns.com/problems-caused-bad-valve-adjustment-6875444.html
https://repairpal.com/valve-clearance-check-adjust

And the above references are to LOW revving engines!!!!
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: chico on September 25, 2017, 01:18:45 AM
The bottom line is as we call it on our side of the pond, a crap shoot, or roll of the dice. The answer to whether you need to have it done is unfortunately unknown until it's done. If the engine needs the valves re-shimmed then you need it done. If they're OK then you have the peace of mind. :125:

Chico
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: Turbo100 on September 25, 2017, 08:40:04 AM
What do people tend to find when the clearance is checked, that the required clearance is reduced or increased or a mixture of both?
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: Alunr on September 25, 2017, 09:51:56 AM
In my case No adjustment was necessary.
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: kokkios on September 25, 2017, 01:37:48 PM
Had mine done last week. 2 valves were out of spec
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: Cats on September 25, 2017, 02:13:14 PM
*Originally Posted by Turbo100 [+]
What do people tend to find when the clearance is checked, that the required clearance is reduced or increased or a mixture of both?

Mine were a mixture of both. What's that saying? "A loose shim is a happy shim", well I like mine within spec.
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: street tango on September 27, 2017, 02:53:04 PM
Whatever you do get the suspension linkages done.
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: Zaphod on September 27, 2017, 09:29:23 PM
*Originally Posted by Turbo100 [+]
What do people tend to find when the clearance is checked, that the required clearance is reduced or increased or a mixture of both?

My inlet valves have always been fine, never needed adjusting. At each 12k service (3 of those so far, on the same bike) majority of exhaust valves have needed doing.
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: Bassman on September 28, 2017, 05:37:27 AM
May as well at 20000km service you have to reset the cam timing anyway if your bikes a 2015 onwards so may as well replace any loose or tight shims.I had to do one inlet the rest were well in spec. :002:
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: ENGLISHBANDIT on September 28, 2017, 09:21:16 PM
 had my valves checked last week 12,600 miles was told all were good . To be honest it's the first bike I had had checked. Will not get it done again. I have always been told by good mechanic friends of mine 95% of the time your waisting your money. As long as they do not go quiet your fine . Rattling a bit is good. And to be honest half the time I wonder if the shops even check them. I was told they were fine and all paper work said was checked that was it ?
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: Turbo100 on September 28, 2017, 09:34:22 PM
*Originally Posted by ENGLISHBANDIT [+]
had my valves checked last week 12,600 miles was told all were good . To be honest it's the first bike I had had checked. Will not get it done again. I have always been told by good mechanic friends of mine 95% of the time your waisting your money. As long as they do not go quiet your fine . Rattling a bit is good. And to be honest half the time I wonder if the shops even check them.

Going off the experiences I have had with dealers that will be a big NO
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: MGB on September 29, 2017, 04:03:14 PM
You should check them. Just did 12,300 mile check on my /16 XR - all within spec. But I have no idea where they started out!  So I now have a baseline for the 24K service - I'll be able to tell if they are changing or not.

Folks said the Yamaha Tenere's don't need checking. They are 26K intervals. I checked at 22K and had three exhaust outside limits (too tight). So you never know.
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: digger06 on November 03, 2017, 10:19:40 PM
done mine, , 2 were tight on the exhaust, by a v small amount, the dealers round here probably wouldn't have bothered but its my bike , so they got done,
piece of piss to do btw, the triumph engine is pretty easy to work on as long as you take your time ,
I removed the rad to gain better access, a 5 min job, and u need to drain it for the service anyway....
extremely easy to time up valve wise,and all bolts easy enough to get too... pretty well thought out, imo
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: chico on November 04, 2017, 12:30:27 AM
Removing the radiator seems very clever, never occurred to me as I was struggling with getting the "feelers" in position. :493:

Chico
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: Paulhere on November 04, 2017, 09:44:23 AM
Having done the shims myself when warranty has run out on my Triumphs after they had supposedly been done by dealers, I found on 2 of my Sprints that the clearances were minus zilch, so not just closed up but not sealed. That was on several valves. On my 3rd Sprint i did all the servicing from day one & found 2 valves near bottom limit at the first check.

My Tiger Sport at its 12k service needed 3 inlets changing + 3 exhausts were changed 'cos they were on the low side. I have never found any above top limit on any of my Triumphs.

If you don't do them, the first problem you will encounter is, one day it won't start, nae compression & burnt out valves & seats. Expensive mistake.

IMO the 12k check & adjust is the most important, if then, they are all set at mid to top tolerance they could possibly be left until the 36k service. But I wouldn't from past experience.

I'll ask MS to do my T800 when its due. He gets good reviews all round.
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: digger06 on November 04, 2017, 05:18:28 PM
*Originally Posted by chico [+]
Removing the radiator seems very clever, never occurred to me as I was struggling with getting the "feelers" in position. :493:

Chico
I,ll tell you another, when you line the marks up for the cams/crank, tiegrip the cams to the camchain via the holes in the cogs, they stay in the correct position then, no chance of jumping a tooth, you can still move them plenty to remove the buckets,

Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: chico on November 04, 2017, 09:13:21 PM
digger, doesn't doing what you suggest make the task of measuring the clearances more cumbersome?

Chico
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: KildareMan on November 05, 2017, 06:48:47 PM
*Originally Posted by chico [+]
digger, doesn't doing what you suggest make the task of measuring the clearances more cumbersome?

Chico
Possibly but ultimately safer.
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: digger06 on November 13, 2017, 01:35:01 PM
as above , a lot safer,
doesn't really make it that more cumbersome, plenty of slack in the chain once the tensioners out,
maybe if I was replacing ALL the shims I would consider it but that's never gonna happen, the cams can be moved about quite easily with the tie grips on,
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: chico on November 14, 2017, 07:09:47 AM
Perhaps I misunderstand. What exactly do you who speak proper English mean by "tiegrip"? :465:

Chico
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: digger06 on November 14, 2017, 07:56:59 AM
Ziptie?
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: Stevie.P on November 14, 2017, 09:39:24 AM
Been in engineering over 40yrs and currently use them every day .... we call them 'cable ties'.
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: Turbo100 on November 14, 2017, 09:44:55 AM
*Originally Posted by chico [+]
Perhaps I misunderstand. What exactly do you who speak proper English mean by "tiegrip"? :465:

Chico
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: Stevie.P on November 14, 2017, 11:10:08 AM
*Originally Posted by Stevie.P [+]
Been in engineering over 40yrs and currently use them every day .... we call them 'cable ties'.

http://uk.rs-online.com/web/c/cables-wires/cable-accessories-ties-tools/cable-ties/?searchTerm=cable%20ties

Never heard the term 'tiegrip' before .... 'zip tie' yes.
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: digger06 on November 14, 2017, 11:44:27 AM
probably called them tie grips cos that's the make of them on the packets I have, you have to ask for tie grips at work cos the storemen just look on the packet,
yes, cable ties...
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: Paulhere on November 14, 2017, 12:23:11 PM
Also known as Ty-raps. Call them what you want, we all know what you mean.

http://www.tnb.com/pub/en/node/186
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: chico on November 14, 2017, 04:27:16 PM
Thank you gents.

Chico
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: Turbo100 on November 14, 2017, 04:39:54 PM
 :211:
Cable ties were first invented by Thomas & Betts, an electrical company, in 1958 under the brand name Ty-Rap. Initially they were designed for airplane wire harnesses. The original design used a metal tooth, and these can still be obtained. Manufacturers later changed to the nylon/plastic design.
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: NEPAChuy on November 14, 2017, 11:09:17 PM
Buy the service manual, all the tools needed for the job, and check the valves yourself. Itís straightforward to do and itís gratifying to complete the job knowing itís done right. Then, take the money you saved on the service and knock an item off your wishlist.

And for what itís worth, valve clearance will depend on both quality control when your bike was manufactured (there are statistics involved in materials specifications and valves clearances when bikes leave the factory) and how you ride and maintain the bike. Hard acceleration, high revs, and infrequent oil changes are just a few ways to wear down an engine.
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: ArcticFox on January 08, 2018, 10:27:47 PM
Just been quoted 800+ for the 12K service...but as it would be within warranty time anything else needed and could be covered under warranty will be...an I am sure they will be fair
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: Pailton on January 08, 2018, 11:38:03 PM
*Originally Posted by ArcticFox [+]
Just been quoted 800+ for the 12K service...but as it would be within warranty time anything else needed and could be covered under warranty will be...an I am sure they will be fair

Mate they are really having your pants down, that is just day light robbery for the service. There is absolutely no need to charge that sort of money. I'd be tempted to report them to trading standards and Triumph. Triumph can't control how much dealers charge but they can certainly put pressure on not to rip customers off.   :232:
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: ArcticFox on January 09, 2018, 12:17:46 AM
If I spoke with Triumph direct do you think they would be able to suggest what they would expect a 12K service to cost? or would they sit on the fence?
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: Pailton on January 09, 2018, 02:22:06 AM
Triumph would be able to tell you the labour time for the service, and a bit of googling would give you the price of the parts.

There is a number of threads on here discussing the cost of servicing, I was quoted by a dealer £570 inc vat back in September for mine which made me flip my lid. Muddy sump did it for £360 if I remember rightly.

As a manufacturer Triumph wont like getting a phone call saying their dealers are over charging and I suspect would " have a word with them".

Having said that I wouldn't recommend you use that dealership anyway, the price they have quoted you just demonstrates they are not interested in you as a customer and are only interested in getting as much money out of you as they can. I can pretty much guarantee that they would find various things wrong (ahem) and your bill would very quickly go into 4 figures.

Out of interest you should ask them what they intend to do for your £800 see what they say, your servicebook has  the service schedule in it so you can see what they should be doing.

Off the top of my head it's Oil and filter, air filter, chain guide and valve clearances. If some one could just confirm that I would appreciate it.

Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: Rtwo on January 09, 2018, 05:41:17 AM
*Originally Posted by ArcticFox [+]
Just been quoted 800+ for the 12K service...but as it would be within warranty time anything else needed and could be covered under warranty will be...an I am sure they will be fair

I'd cry for a month  :001:

As you're in Bristol, you could well give this guy a shout, he's very well regarded
http://www.superbikesurgery.co.uk/

Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: JonesTheBass on January 09, 2018, 07:19:47 AM
I was quoted £500 by the Manchester triumph dealer, and £460 by the one in Stafford.
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: johnnyboy101 on January 09, 2018, 08:25:44 AM
The service prices are putting me off another triumph! quoted 850-900 for 12000 service. Running a multistrader a lot cheaper and that can't be right.
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: KildareMan on January 09, 2018, 09:08:56 AM
*Originally Posted by johnnyboy101 [+]
The service prices are putting me off another triumph! quoted 850-900 for 12000 service. Running a multistrader a lot cheaper and that can't be right.

Does make you wonder.
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: Paulhere on January 09, 2018, 09:21:28 AM
For a full 12k/2yr service the parts & fluids are £200'ish, as listed & charged by Muddysump. Labour £220.

A dealer will charge maybe £60/hr for labour, £480/8hr day, so max should be £680 total.

The dealer mechanic will not work on our bikes like Muddysump does, David is only working on one bike, not getting called away or interrupted by others, even if he is possibly anywhere near as quick as David. So we get some corners cut & service items missed out, not done properly, fluids not changed, etc. The dealer mechanics will tell us they can't do it all in a day, I believe that.

You know your 12k service hasn't been done properly when you drop it off at 9am & it's outside "all done sir" at 2.30pm.
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: seeyoujimmy on January 09, 2018, 10:46:55 AM
Hi
Bit of a lurker here but here are my own findings .
Almost 20,000 mls on my 2013 Tiger roadie. Finally got round to the valve check which I did myself.
All the valves were within the tolerance figures. Some in the middle and some at the lower end.
Strangely enough the exhaust valves were better than the inlets which most say are the ones likely to need adjusting?
It is a fiddly job due to the lack of room so patience is required. Used the same valve cover gasket again.
I don't thrash the bike and only travel one up. Seldom fully loaded.
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: prenticemarie on January 09, 2018, 12:56:10 PM
*Originally Posted by Paulhere [+]
For a full 12k/2yr service the parts & fluids are £200'ish, as listed & charged by Muddysump. Labour £220.

Not any more, unfortunately ... http://www.muddysump.com/main/its-break-time/ (http://www.muddysump.com/main/its-break-time/)
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: Paulhere on January 09, 2018, 01:05:08 PM
Aye m8, that's been bigger news than Donald Trump turning Turtle.
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: ArcticFox on January 09, 2018, 01:10:29 PM
*Originally Posted by prenticemarie [+]
Not any more, unfortunately ... http://www.muddysump.com/main/its-break-time/ (http://www.muddysump.com/main/its-break-time/)

All well and good and why not! no point working hard and not getting time to play...however it don't help me lol

The dealer told me about a day as long as no other parts needed, i would have been tempted by the fact by doing it at the end of the warranty period anything could be picked up and covered under warranty......but the price scares me......telling the wife more than paying for it
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: Paulhere on January 09, 2018, 01:18:15 PM
Does nobody in the Bristol TOMCC know of a good independent.
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: NomadLad on November 05, 2020, 04:05:39 AM
I'm pretty p*ssed off that there is even a question of whether  dealers really check valve clearances or not when they're paid to do it...

Question... when checking valve clearances, the gasket absolutely must be changed?

I'll be sending mine in for its 20,000km/12,000mile service soon and was considering marking the gasket in some way to see whether it had been replaced or if this isn't realistic, putting a security seal of some sort on the top end.
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: chico on November 05, 2020, 05:18:18 AM
Tell the service department you want the old parts when checking out.

Chico
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: grizzlybear on November 05, 2020, 06:29:50 AM
Tell them to make a video, my triumph dealer (now closed) used to put the videos online showing oil draining etc 👍
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: awjdthumper on November 05, 2020, 06:39:12 AM
I recently completed a very comprehensive 12k service on my 800 XCA which I did myself. Rightly or wrongly, I'm not sure I would have trusted a Triumph dealership to have done this properly as it would have been all to easy for them to have taken the view that the valve clearances didn't really need to be checked at 12k miles.

If I wanted to check that a dealer had done the valve clearances, I would probably have put marker paint on the cam cover bolts to at least check they had been disturbed. I believe you can get at the outer bolts to mark them with the tank on the bike.
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: street tango on November 05, 2020, 08:22:32 AM
Have you done the shock linkage?
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: awjdthumper on November 05, 2020, 08:48:55 AM
Not sure who the last question was aimed at but I certainly serviced both the swinging arm and rear suspension linkage bearings which involved checking and re-greasing. A fairly straightforward job!
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: street tango on November 05, 2020, 09:07:33 AM
Good to hear. Many dont. Then rather than grease up it's a recondition job.👍👍👍
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: Shergar on November 05, 2020, 04:53:14 PM
Anyone living within a 2 hour ride of Clive Wood near Boston Lincs could do far worse than booking in with him for a service.
He knows what he is doing, his wife feeds you tea, coffee and bacon sandwiches and more importantly he has a dialogue with you first on what is needed and shows you what he is doing as he goes along. I left him alone and went and sat in their bungalow while he did my bike a few months back but he came in to call me from time to time to point stuff out or ask questions.
Costs less than a dealer and you know that what you have paid for has been done.
He is just under 2 hours away from me - I rode up last on a wet and cold day and will gladly do so next year, his wife took my wet gear to hang up to dry while I was there as well.

Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: ItchyOxter on November 19, 2020, 03:00:07 PM
Halfway through 12000 mile service. Four exhaust and one inlet valve tight! Get your valve clearances checked!
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: barry.t100sr on November 19, 2020, 06:01:43 PM

I'm prepared to be shot down on this idea, but here goes anyway  :002:

My understanding is that valve clearances on Triumph engines usually tighten up over time due to valve seat recession, and they are also tighter when the engine is cold.  This can result in difficult cold starting but  the engine will run ok when warmed up, until the clearance reduces to zero even when hot.

So, instead of pulling the engine apart to check clearances, why can we not rely on a simple compression test to indicate if there is clearance ?
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: Paulhere on November 19, 2020, 06:26:05 PM
No!  :192:
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: barry.t100sr on November 19, 2020, 06:38:39 PM
*Originally Posted by Paulhere [+]
No!  :192:

Thanks for your quick response Paul, but my question was "why".
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: Paulhere on November 19, 2020, 06:46:17 PM
*Originally Posted by barry.t100sr [+]
Thanks for your quick response Paul, but my question was "why".

Your min exhaust being 0.325mm, if it was 0.025 (1 thou) it would be shut & compression ok, a few miles down the road it'd be open, burning your valve & seat. A mechanic told me he did it your method to save time, glad he told me, I wouldn't let him on my bike.
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: awjdthumper on November 19, 2020, 07:17:15 PM
*Originally Posted by barry.t100sr [+]
Thanks for your quick response Paul, but my question was "why".
The valve clearances are not there simply to avoid zero clearance when the engine is hot but to allow the cams to open and close the valves quietly. If you let the clearances close up too much, the top end of the engine is likely to start to rattle!



Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: barry.t100sr on November 19, 2020, 07:31:28 PM
*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
The valve clearances are not there simply to avoid zero clearance when the engine is hot but to allow the cams to open and close the valves quietly. If you let the clearances close up too much, the top end of the engine is likely to start to rattle!

Surely it's the other way round ?
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: street tango on November 19, 2020, 08:42:25 PM
*Originally Posted by barry.t100sr [+]
Surely it's the other way round ?
Correct.
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: Stevie.P on November 19, 2020, 09:20:00 PM
*Originally Posted by barry.t100sr [+]
Surely it's the other way round ?

Yes. It is better to have valve clearances too big/loose rather than too tight which risks burnt valves as seats .... hence, in my day, mechs were taught 'a noisy tappet is a happy tappet'.  :028:
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: JohnTz on November 20, 2020, 04:59:10 PM
By the time you see any measurable compression issue the damage is done.
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: Stevie.P on November 20, 2020, 05:57:17 PM
*Originally Posted by barry.t100sr [+]
My understanding is that valve clearances on Triumph engines usually tighten up over time due to valve seat recession, ....

On old Meriden Triumphs designed to run on leaded petrol possibly, but modern engines, like Hinkley Triumph, designed for unleaded I don't believe they suffer valve seat recession. In fact after LRP was phased out well before expectation I have had no option but to run my 79 Bonnie on unleaded fuel and I've not suffered any valve seat recession to date. At the start I kept an extra regular check on valve clearances as the obvious way to spot any issue and have never found any accelerated clearance closing.  :028:
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: barry.t100sr on November 20, 2020, 06:35:05 PM
*Originally Posted by JohnTz [+]
By the time you see any measurable compression issue the damage is done.

I beg to disagree John.

I'm not saying I'm right on this,.... I did say earlier that I'm prepared to be shot down,  but so far I have not seen any hard evidence that my compression test "system" is not worth a try.

I had experience some years ago with a 900 Sprint, I had adjusted three exhaust valves at about 55,000 miles.  About 10k miles later I started to have cold start problems and a friend suggested that the valve clearances might be tight.
Sure enough, two were tight.  Once adjusted the engine was fine again, and went on to 85,000 when I sold it two years ago.
I see it regularly on the road still going well.

So, my 2016 Tiger 800 XR is now up to 22,000 miles and is running better than ever !  Starts immediately hot or cold. Never had valves checked.  I'll be changing the plugs again soon and will check the compression. If it's ok I'll put it back together and carry on riding  :002:

I'm prepared to take the risk, rather than go to the time and expense of checking clearances every 12k miles.

I'm lucky in that I can sort it myself.  I would hate to think that I might pay a dealer to do work that doesn't get done!

How many times have you heard "valves checked,... all ok" ?....  or worse still  " three adjusted, that'll  be £700++ for the full service.

Finally, how many of you have had burnt valves on a modern bike engine ?..... not many I guess ?

That's all for now.   :002: 

 

 
   
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: AvgBear on November 20, 2020, 06:54:13 PM
*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
The valve clearances are not there simply to avoid zero clearance when the engine is hot but to allow the cams to open and close the valves quietly.
The great majority of modern ICEs run with zero valve clearance due to the popular use of hydraulic lifters / cam followers.
Some camshaft lobes are designed with quieting ramps -- some not: performance cams often want to pop the valves open quickly and let them shut quickly with little regard to noise.
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: JohnTz on November 20, 2020, 07:02:16 PM
*Originally Posted by barry.t100sr [+]
I beg to disagree John.

I'm not saying I'm right on this,.... I did say earlier that I'm prepared to be shot down,  but so far I have not seen any hard evidence that my compression test "system" is not worth a try.

I had experience some years ago with a 900 Sprint, I had adjusted three exhaust valves at about 55,000 miles.  About 10k miles later I started to have cold start problems and a friend suggested that the valve clearances might be tight.
Sure enough, two were tight.  Once adjusted the engine was fine again, and went on to 85,000 when I sold it two years ago.
I see it regularly on the road still going well.

So, my 2016 Tiger 800 XR is now up to 22,000 miles and is running better than ever !  Starts immediately hot or cold. Never had valves checked.  I'll be changing the plugs again soon and will check the compression. If it's ok I'll put it back together and carry on riding  :002:

I'm prepared to take the risk, rather than go to the time and expense of checking clearances every 12k miles.

I'm lucky in that I can sort it myself.  I would hate to think that I might pay a dealer to do work that doesn't get done!

How many times have you heard "valves checked,... all ok" ?....  or worse still  " three adjusted, that'll  be £700++ for the full service.

Finally, how many of you have had burnt valves on a modern bike engine ?..... not many I guess ?

That's all for now.   :002: 

 

 
   

Hi Barry.

It is a crap shoot. I have seen these engines go t50K miles with valves staying within spec and my best friends engine was ruined at 21K miles at the exhaust side. My experience is that my intakes were right on at 12K but all my exhaust were slightly tight. After adjustment they have not moved at all at 25K miles. It is simply a risk reward equation that you have to make for yourself.

If you are already taken all the parts off to get to the plugs you have completed 75% of the work to check the valves. I would simply then remove the cover and check them for peace of mind. The hardest part of it is removing the plastic crap :)
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: Paulhere on November 20, 2020, 07:19:36 PM
*Originally Posted by JohnTz [+]
By the time you see any measurable compression issue the damage is done.

True, valves & seats will already be damaged.

*Originally Posted by AvgBear [+]
The great majority of modern ICEs run with zero valve clearance due to the popular use of hydraulic lifters / cam followers.

That might be true of big old US 5 Litre lumps, certainly not on modern day performance engines. Fords did it on Escorts back in the 90's, not now on Focus. Honda did it on a low maintenance 750cc 4cyl retro back in 90's.

The vast majority of performance engines are shim under bucket with cam running direct on bucket (or on shim, on shim over on earlier trumpies) so very little to wear topside, hence the clearances close up, seat recess beats wear. A little rattle is ok.

On the old pushrod engines, there are many moving parts to open valves, hence wear beats valve recess, so clearances open up & rattle, fortunately it's a quick & easy job on lock screw & nut.
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: AvgBear on November 20, 2020, 07:23:00 PM
*Originally Posted by barry.t100sr [+]
My understanding is that valve clearances on Triumph engines usually tighten up over time due to valve seat recession
*Originally Posted by Stevie.P [+]
...modern engines, like Hinkley Triumph, designed for unleaded I don't believe they suffer valve seat recession.
'Strewth, modern metallurgy has devoted much energy in preserving valve faces, valve seats (and the seat's integrity with the combustion chamber / cylinder head: seat recession).
Still, there may be component wear: not all valves are created equal. Higher performance engines will want to use larger parts for more flow - yet lighter parts for higher rev limits. Large diameter thin/light intake valves are often suspect durability-wise.
Exhaust valves, OTOH, are often sufficiently stout in order to be able to exist in their terrible environment. But, a design for a certain performance target, fer instance, that may limit an exhaust valve's time resting on it's seat to shed heat -- may cause less durability clearance-wise.
Variables exist due to design parameters: cost / intended market / available materials - alloys / etc.
Most manufacturers are doing a masterful job in this regard these days (IMHO).
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: AvgBear on November 20, 2020, 07:27:45 PM
*Originally Posted by Paulhere [+]
Fords did it on Escorts back in the 90's, not now on Focus.
Wiki:
"Hydraulic tappets require more complex and more expensive cylinder head design. A number of subcompact car manufacturers prefer solid valve lifters due to lower design and production cost rather than hydraulic tappets."
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: Paulhere on November 20, 2020, 07:38:38 PM
*Originally Posted by AvgBear [+]
Wiki:
"Hydraulic tappets require more complex and more expensive cylinder head design. A number of subcompact car manufacturers prefer solid valve lifters due to lower design and production cost rather than hydraulic tappets."

The major manufacturers of performance engines mustn't read wiki.  :492:
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: AvgBear on November 20, 2020, 11:30:40 PM
One of the ubiquitous engines is a V6 Toyota, they've been around for decades, and are DOHC w/shim&bucket adjustment -- I've yet to meet an owner who's had the valve clearances checked (let alone - adjusted). One reason is cost -- they're quoted about $1,000 to check the valve clearance. The rear bank of the cross-wise V6 is almost impossible to get at -- some require actually moving the engine.
There are other modern V6 engines that employ hydraulic (automatic) valve-lash adjustment.
Owners of either type seem similarly blissfully unaware of any valve adjustment issues..?

But, as this relates to Triumph,generally, and the T800 in particular: I think that checking and maintaining Triumph's specified valve clearances may have more to do with meeting current emissions regulations than, say, reliability?
After all, Triumph is now re-setting cam-chain sprockets (at interim services) in slots in order to comply with emission regs.
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: Paulhere on November 21, 2020, 08:25:56 AM
(https://photos-cdn.tiger800.co.uk/HWI2GZ6---Imgur.jpg)
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: PapaTom on November 21, 2020, 04:48:37 PM
Decided to check my valves seeing as I've free time on my hands due to lockdown.

First a big thankyou to Mr T800XC for the amazing tool he freely gives. I forgot to reconnect the MAP sensor pipe  :138:  and the software let me know  :152:

Secondly, if any of you guys (or gals) are thinking of doing the same, especially after watching Muddysumps excellent videos, take note. I have a 17/18 model Gen2 and there is a little more going on there than Muddysumps T800. Removing extra parts including SAIS and throttle bodies is not a real problem, but the lack of comparative access is. The available space to access some fixings is really tight, especially when coming to torque back up.

Hope this helps someone.

 :031:
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: JohnTz on November 21, 2020, 08:32:58 PM
*Originally Posted by PapaTom [+]
Decided to check my valves seeing as I've free time on my hands due to lockdown.

First a big thankyou to Mr T800XC for the amazing tool he freely gives. I forgot to reconnect the MAP sensor pipe  :138:  and the software let me know  :152:

Secondly, if any of you guys (or gals) are thinking of doing the same, especially after watching Muddysumps excellent videos, take note. I have a 17/18 model Gen2 and there is a little more going on there than Muddysumps T800. Removing extra parts including SAIS and throttle bodies is not a real problem, but the lack of comparative access is. The available space to access some fixings is really tight, especially when coming to torque back up.

Hope this helps someone.

 :031:

Awesome. So how were they?  Also what is the tool that Mr Tx offers for?
Title: Re: 12,000 mile service...do the valves really need checking?
Post by: PapaTom on November 21, 2020, 09:40:15 PM
Referring to Tigertool software that he developed and offers on this forum.