Triumph Tiger 800 Forum

Tiger 800 / 900 - Main Discussion Section => General Maintenance and Servicing => Topic started by: awjdthumper on September 28, 2020, 05:55:28 PM

Title: The Dreaded 12k Service
Post by: awjdthumper on September 28, 2020, 05:55:28 PM
I bought my 2017 Tiger 800 XCA in March with 11k on the clock but it is now in the workshop ready for the 12k service. I did toy with asking MuddySump to do the service but, in the end, decided to bite the bullet and do it myself, especially since I'm a fairly experienced mechanic! Stage 1 was getting the bike on to the hydraulic ramp which was far from easy given its weight.

Stage 2 was removing the tank. However, I knew it was going to be a fairly massive job given the enormous amount of bits that have to be removed to get at the valve clearances. A couple of dozen fasteners later, all the trim was removed, including the beak, to enable me to get at the tank. Trickiest thing about removing the tank was disconnecting the two electrical connectors and the fuel connector from under the tank. My fingers are reasonably strong but it always seems to take a lot of squeezing to remove these types of connector.

Unfortunately, progress then ground to a halt because a socket head screws holding down one of the input trumpets would not easily budge and there was a likelihood that the socket would strip. I've therefore used some JB Weld to glue my Allen key socket into the screw in the hope that tomorrow it will then unscrew without suffering any damage. I think the problem with the bike is that many of the screws have never been undone since the bike was built and have slightly corroded in the threaded holes.

Stage 3 will be checking (and adjusting) the valve clearances. I've got a 26 blade imperial feeler gauge set on order and am looking forward to seeing how the valve clearances check out given the enormous amount of discussion there's been on this subject. I'm hoping that none of the clearances will need to be adjusted but this may be a bit optimistic :084:

 
Title: Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
Post by: mcinlb on September 28, 2020, 07:27:08 PM
I did the same to my old 2013 Roadie, took me a day to get all the stuff off to get into the engine. But after that it was straight forward, though it is awkward to get the gauges into the exhaust valves.

Luckily all mine valves were in tolerance  , and having just had my 2018 model done by the dealer, yet again all the valves were in tolerance.. :001: :001:
Title: Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
Post by: awjdthumper on September 28, 2020, 08:40:47 PM
My 800 XCA was very carefully treated by the previous owner and I very rarely need to rev it above 5000 rpm and so I'm expecting it to be within tolerance - that would be a very good outcome for me. When I bought the Triumph, I didn't anticipate that the valve clearances would need checking at 12k miles especially as the Jap multi-cylinder bikes I have don't need checking until at least 20k miles!
Title: Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
Post by: Rtwo on September 29, 2020, 11:35:43 AM
It's not that bad to work on, there are many, many worse ones

As for the tank connectors, make sure you lift the front of the tank onto the upper mount and just use a bit of 2x2 to hold the rear up.
That should give you enough clearance to get at them easily or buy some more tools, you can never have enough  :001:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Laser-5163-Fuel-Disconnect-Pliers/dp/B005I4YBPI

Title: Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
Post by: Rtwo on September 29, 2020, 01:19:30 PM
...or just cut a piece of 25mm plastic pipe to suit (I 3D print them)

It just reminded me of something at work I need to do periodically I make a clip for holding a component out of the way whilst a pin is inserted and wondered if it would help getting fat fingers around the fuel connector.

It was made for the job  :001:
It pushes the hood out of the way and then a gentle squeeze and a pull and it's off (fnar, fnar  :007: )

This time next year (Rodney), I'll be a millionaire  :046:

(https://photos-cdn.tiger800.co.uk/IMG_20200929_130313.jpg)
(https://photos-cdn.tiger800.co.uk/IMG_20200929_130344.jpg)
Title: Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
Post by: awjdthumper on September 29, 2020, 05:58:10 PM
The only electrical connector that I had real difficulty with was on the SAIS valve at the front of the cam cover - in fact, I still haven't managed to unhook it!! Fortunately, the breather tube with the valve can be moved out of the way and so shouldn't be a problem.

My JB Weld trick enabled me to unscrew the last throttle inlet trumpet screw without damaging the socket although it was very tight from corrosion. I then spent well over an hour trying to remove the 3 x ignition coils with the last one refusing to budge even when I used all my considerable strength. In the end, I reasoned that it was not freeing from the spark plug thread and so rotated the coil anti-clockwise to effectively unscrew it from the plug after which it eventually came free.

Then discovered that you have to disconnect the throttle body from the inlet in order to remove the cam cover - mine being a 2017 model with ride-by-wire means the throttle motor gets in the way otherwise. As said, I'm hoping that the valve clearances will all be in spec when I measure them tomorrow.

This afternoon, I collected the 12k service kit (T3990015) from the main Triumph dealer in Oxfordshire which they had in stock. I was prepared for the bill of 162 but am still slightly amazed how expensive the bits are!

As part of the 12k service on my 2017 Tiger 800, I am supposed to do the valve timing check. I need to get my head fully around this but I tentatively believe that, if the timing is within spec, the slots in the ends of the two camshafts should align at TDC for cylinder No 1. Fortunately, this appears to be the case with mine but I need to make up a suitable camshaft tool/bar to confirm this.

Hopefully will measure the valve clearances tomorrow :084:


Title: Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
Post by: ItchyOxter on September 29, 2020, 06:19:06 PM
Fingers crossed mate! I've got to do this lot in a month or so  :087:
Title: Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
Post by: chuckxc on September 29, 2020, 11:59:35 PM
Or another, to release the fuel hose connector, a pair of needle nose pliers with two M6 nuts, one slipped on each prong.
Title: Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
Post by: awjdthumper on September 30, 2020, 06:42:22 AM
I have fairly strong hands but even my fingers are a little sore today from all the pressure I had to apply to undo the myriad of Eccoseal electrical connectors - as said, I still haven't been able to disconnect the SAIS valve connector! Fortunately, the fuel line connector wasn't too hard to remove once you realise you have to press in the rubber pads.

I suspect that my 3 year, 12k mileage 800 XCA engine has probably never been touched since it was built but removing the ignition coils was definitely no easy task. At one stage I thought I might end up breaking the connector on it given the force I was having to apply. As said, the trick in the end was to rotate it CCW in order to effectively unscrew it from the spark plug thread which was what was holding it in place.

Today's tasks will be to confirm the valve timing is still within spec which will require a camshaft locking bar to be fabricated, and then to check the valve clearances.
Title: Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
Post by: awjdthumper on September 30, 2020, 08:52:08 AM
I have just machined up a camshaft locking bar (~0.25" x 4") to accurately check the valve timing. With No 1 at TDC using the crankshaft timing marks, I was then able to insert the locking bar into the slots at the end of the two camshafts. This means the relative timing between the two camshafts is spot on. In principle, the crankshaft timing marks should also be spot on but mine was out by a very small amount, possible the order of 2 degrees at the crankshaft. However, I doubt if the timing could be set more accurately than this and will therefore assume mine is within spec.

Had I needed to adjust the timing, the camshaft sprocket bolts would need to be undone to allow the sprockets to be rotated on each camshaft. With No 1 cylinder at TDC and the camshaft locking bar in place, the trick would then be to do up the sprocket bolts while tensioning the timing chain with the tensioning needing a special Triumph tool.

The valve timing only needs to be done, slightly counter-intuitively, at the 12k service but not at later services - this is presumably because of the need to account for any initial timing chain stretch. Had my valve timing needed to be adjusted, I would have given it a go but this is definitely not a procedure for the faint hearted given the problems that could result if you get it wrong!
Title: Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
Post by: grizzlybear on September 30, 2020, 10:02:33 AM
I only tried once to get fuel pipe off, and failed. Ain't tried again, that was 2013  :492:

Might buy that tool though 👍
Title: Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
Post by: Stevie.P on September 30, 2020, 10:19:44 AM
*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
The valve timing only needs to be done, slightly counter-intuitively, at the 12k service but not at later services - ..

What issue of service schedule do you have and could you put it up if possible.

I had mine under a service plan initially and have copies of the 14th(2014), 16th(2016) and 18th(2017) Issue and it kept changing. :027:
On issue 14 it was clearly marked as required on 1st 12k service only.
On issue 16 it had been removed altogether.
On issue 18 it shows as being requires on every 12 & 24k service.
Title: Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
Post by: awjdthumper on September 30, 2020, 01:45:10 PM
Rightly or wrongly, I was going by the service schedule given in the Haynes manual. Although I doubt that I will get to 24k on my Tiger 800 XCA, if I do, then I would still do the valve timing check whatever the service schedule said.  As explained, the check is fairly straightforward using a suitable camshaft locking bar.

In practice, what will be noticed first (I would expect) with any timing chain stretch is that the crankshaft timing marks won't line up after the camshafts have been locked (there's a lot more timing chain between the crankshaft sprocket and the camshaft sprockets than between the camshaft sprockets). On mine, the error at the crankshaft is < 2 degrees but this translates to < 1 degrees at the camshaft (it spins at half the speed).

I haven't seen a suitable valve timing spec but I would have thought anything less than, say, 3 degrees at the camshaft is going to be ok. Clearly, on earlier Tiger 800's, no valve timing adjustment was possible and, if it was too far out, then you would be looking at replacing the timing chain. On the later engines, like mine, you have option of resetting the valve timing but I'm not sure there is a clear spec to judge when this is necessary.

The spec I will use is an error of half a tooth on the crankshaft cog which has the timing mark on it. This would equate to 3.5 degrees at the crankshaft.
Title: Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
Post by: Stevie.P on September 30, 2020, 03:42:33 PM
*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
Rightly or wrongly, I was going by the service schedule given in the Haynes manual.

I wasn't criticising your decision if it appeared that way but purely trying to find/confirm the latest official answer. As a relatively new member you may not be aware that the controversy and discussion around the process and merits of this service item has been going on here for years. When I first queried the process with my dealers workshop staff in 2015 regarding my Street Triple (which this was applicable too) they hadn't even heard of it, fobbing me off saying they check the valve/shim clearances anyway. :211:

I'm due to do the 24k service on mine soon, definitely before going on the Frankfurt Megameet in May, so will be visiting the dealer fairly soon to order the tools (except the stupidly priced torque screwdriver) and will see if I can scrounge a copy of the latest service schedule. :028:
Title: Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
Post by: awjdthumper on September 30, 2020, 04:22:04 PM
I didn't take it as criticism - I was sort of apologising for relying on a Haynes manual!!

I'd seen previous posts regarding this issue but, being pragmatic and an engineer, I came to my own conclusion regarding this service procedure. As said, if you are going to check the valve clearances, doing the valve timing check is pretty simple. It's then a question of what to do with the result :084:

Unfortunately, since the last post, I've done an initial valve clearance check and got what I've seen other people have reported. The inlet clearance are all in the middle of the spec range but the exhaust clearances are all in the 0.25 - 0.28 mm range; that is, almost 0.1 mm too tight which is basically what the change in the 6 x shims will need to be.

A bit disappointed with this result which seems much worst than I've seen in any other motorcycle engine!

Title: Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
Post by: AvgBear on September 30, 2020, 04:57:32 PM
*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
the trick would then be to do up the sprocket bolts while tensioning the timing chain with the tensioning needing a special Triumph tool. Had my valve timing needed to be adjusted, I would have given it a go but this is definitely not a procedure for the faint hearted given the problems that could result if you get it wrong!
Yes, any compressed valve springs want to rotate their cam-shafts causing difficulty of parts staying in-place.
I once replaced a long cam-shaft cog-belt on a 4-cam Subaru boxer with many auxiliary pulleys and tensioner -- gettin/keeping everything aligned was a task.

*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
The valve timing only needs to be done, slightly counter-intuitively, at the 12k service but not at later services - this is presumably because of the need to account for any initial timing chain stretch.
I believe Triumph (manufacturers) are responsible for their products meeting current emissions regs. for a certain length of time -- and, some engines may be on the 'ragged edge' of meeting those regs. (thus requiring stricter attention).

*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
I haven't seen a suitable valve timing spec but I would have thought anything less than, say, 3 degrees at the camshaft is going to be ok. Clearly, on earlier Tiger 800's, no valve timing adjustment was possible and, if it was too far out, then you would be looking at replacing the timing chain. On the later engines, like mine, you have option of resetting the valve timing but I'm not sure there is a clear spec to judge when this is necessary.
I haven't seen a valve-timing specs, either -- but don't doubt it's available - somewhere? Re slotted cam sprockets for earlier T800s -- they were available ala Triumph 675 mods. Those who blueprint engines, change cam-shafts, modify, adjust cam-lobe centers -- all need such. I assume early T800s will accept the later sprockets?
Triumph FSM (and Mr. Haynes) offer measurement specs. and procedure for determining limit of cam-chain wear (stretch) -- for deciding replacement.
Title: Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
Post by: Stevie.P on September 30, 2020, 05:41:50 PM
*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
As explained, the check is fairly straightforward using a suitable camshaft locking bar.

In practice, what will be noticed first (I would expect) with any timing chain stretch is that the crankshaft timing marks won't line up after the camshafts have been locked (there's a lot more timing chain between the crankshaft sprocket and the camshaft sprockets than between the camshaft sprockets).

I have to disagree, if the sprocket lines were spot on aligned from new then unless the marks were setup at the factory out of alignment for some corrective reason (serious accumulated max/min manufacturing tolerances of the assembled components, if even checked) or the timing has been previously adjusted by a previous owner then locking the cams with the tool will always align the sprocket marks irrelevant of chain. To exaggerate for the purpose of picturing it, the cams (and crank) are locked, the sprocket lines will be spot on, but the chain between the sprockets actually droops down 1/4".

*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
On the later engines, like mine, you have option of resetting the valve timing but I'm not sure there is a clear spec to judge when this is necessary.

The spec I will use is an error of half a tooth on the crankshaft cog which has the timing mark on it. This would equate to 3.5 degrees at the crankshaft.

The whole setting of the camshaft timing is really central around the correct chain tension and hence the tensioner tool and torque screwdriver. The crank is rotated 180 degrees from alignment and the 1 visible screw on each sprocket just slacked off to allow movement. The crank is then rotated 180 degrees again to align the TDC marks and fit locking pin on crank and cams, unless out of alignment when the other 2 visible sprocket screws can be slackened before and a sprocket moved to enable locking. This now ensures correct timing and the important part is now ensuring the correct tension on the timing chain, hence the required replacement tensioner tools. With the correct tension applied to the chain and the sprockets free to move everything falls into its correct place. The crank is locked so correct tension on chain from crank all the way around over the cam sprockets back to the (relatively irrelevant) back side of the inlet cam puts the sprockets in the required correct position (regardless of alignment lines). Now every thing is timed correct and with the cams still locked and sprockets held by chain tension the 2 visible screws are nipped up enough or torqued up to stop any movement when subsequently turning the engine (I would nip initially and go back around and torque), the locking pins removed, turned 180 degrees and the other 2 sprocket screws similarly tightened. Rotate a couple of turns and re-align crank and re-pin and check camshaft locking plate still slots straight in .... remove locking tools ... job done.

The error for some could be the belief that the camshaft sprocket lines must both align with the cylinder block head on completion but this clearly won't happen once/if there has been a change in the chain (i.e stretch/wear) and sprocket positions.

Just as an aside - the fact that I now fully understand this process on the Tiger actually helps clear an issue I once wondered about with the Street Triple. Unlike the Tiger the Street Triple had more of a reputation (definitely on the forum) for cam chain tensioner issues (rattling) and a favourite solution was to fit an APE manual adjuster in place of the hydraulic one. My concern with this was the method of using judgement for how tight to screw the adjuster (slack rattily and overtight not good) but if I was to have similar issues with the Tiger tensioner I would fit the APE adjuster and know that by tightening the adjuster screw directly to only 0.6nm against the chain then (presumably/theoretically) it would be applying exactly the same tension as the hydraulic tensioner design, without the associated rattling waiting for oil pressure.
Title: Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
Post by: awjdthumper on September 30, 2020, 07:47:53 PM
*Originally Posted by Stevie.P [+]
I have to disagree, if the sprocket lines were spot on aligned from new then unless the marks were setup at the factory out of alignment for some corrective reason (serious accumulated max/min manufacturing tolerances of the assembled components, if even checked) or the timing has been previously adjusted by a previous owner then locking the cams with the tool will always align the sprocket marks irrelevant of chain. To exaggerate for the purpose of picturing it, the cams (and crank) are locked, the sprocket lines will be spot on, but the chain between the sprockets actually droops down 1/4".
I think you may be reading more into what I said than was intended. Until you mentioned it, and I went and had a look, I hadn't realised there were (very small) timing marks on the camshaft sprockets. Having looked, the marks are definitely aligned once the locking bar is in place which, presumably, was the way the engine was set up at the factory. The only point I was making was that, if the crankshaft marks were aligned in this configuration at the factory, any timing chain wear would result in them not being aligned now.
Title: Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
Post by: Stevie.P on September 30, 2020, 08:26:55 PM
*Originally Posted by awjdthumper [+]
I think you may be reading more into what I said than was intended.

:431:
No, didn't read more into it ... happy to admit my error, I didn't read what you stated clearly ... I actually missed that you were referring to having the cam locking bar fitted without the crank locking pin fitted. :164: :003:

But hopefully the rest of my description beyond that paragraph helps .... (at least someone) ... get a clearer picture of the process. :027:  :002:
Title: Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
Post by: awjdthumper on October 01, 2020, 06:29:08 AM
Fortunately, my valve timing check showed everything was ok (as far as I was concerned) and I therefore did not have to face up to the possibility of having to adjust it :152:

Title: Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
Post by: awjdthumper on October 01, 2020, 08:03:28 AM
I had a second attempt last night at trying to measure the exhaust valve clearances. The inlet clearances were all in spec but the exhaust clearances all appear to be the order of 0.1 mm too tight.

However, it is proving very hard to measure the exhaust clearances with total confidence because this has to effectively be done blind - that is, except for the left-hand most valve, you can't see where the feeler gauge is going.

The problem found is that it seems to take a bit of force to get a feeler gauge started but then the drag on the gauge can appear to be relatively light making it difficult to judge which gauge provides an accurate clearance measurement. At best at the moment, there seems to be an uncertainty of about 1 thou (0.025 mm) and therefore I might end up having to take the slightly lower reading to be on the safe side :084:

In fact, the MuddySump video on measuring valve clearances (on a bike with 8k on the clock) seems to demonstrate this problem because, for the two exhaust clearances that are measured, he manages to get both the .325 mm and .375 mm feeler gauges to slide freely between the cam lobe and the bucket. For this bike, I would have thought the .375 mm gauge would have been no go given the exhaust clearances close up over time.

I will have one last go but, as said, I might have to err on the side of caution and assume each exhaust clearance is 1 thou less than the largest feeler gauge that appears to be a sliding fit.
Title: Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
Post by: mcinlb on October 01, 2020, 09:22:30 AM
I had to bend the feeler gauges to get them to slide into the exhaust valves , I think muddy does the same..
Title: Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
Post by: awjdthumper on October 01, 2020, 11:52:49 AM
I bent the feeler gauges even more than MuddySump but still had problems getting consistent measurements. However, after two days of trying and at least 6-8 sets of measurements, I finally learned how to measure the exhaust clearances reliably on the Tiger 800 :028:

The final set of results were interesting in that every exhaust valve clearance was identical - basically between 11-12 thou (0.279 - 0.304 mm). At least that gives me confidence that all the exhaust valves are all ageing in the same way!

Also interesting was that all the exhaust shims were identical at 2.55 mm which were all checked with a micrometer. In order to reset all the clearances to 0.375 mm, I would need to change the shims to 1.55 mm. However, the smallest Triumph do is 1.70 mm and so I settled for ordering 6 of these. In principle, these should reset the exhaust valve clearances to 0.366 mm which is good enough for my purposes.

I don't expect my Tiger 800 XCA to get to 24k but if I was to lose another 0.1 mm of exhaust valve clearance in the next 12k miles, I'm not sure I would then be able to re-shim them - I would need 0.55 mm shims which are not available.
Title: Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
Post by: awjdthumper on October 01, 2020, 11:54:54 AM
Just realised I got the decimal point in the wrong place! I think I will need to phone the Triumph spare department to change my order!
Title: Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
Post by: awjdthumper on October 01, 2020, 04:07:40 PM
The shims in my XCA were all marked 255 and I inadvertently took this to be .255 when I originally calculated the new shim sizes. I should have taken this to be 2.55 mm and so I have now ordered 6 x 245 shims.
Title: Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
Post by: awjdthumper on October 02, 2020, 02:26:29 PM
I am going to have to wait until next week to get the new shims and, so in the meantime, I thought I would overhaul the rear end. Back wheel is now off, along with the rear suspension drop link and the swinging arm. Unfortunately, on my Tiger 800 XCA, to remove the swinging arm first requires the silencer to be removed which requires the RH pannier rack to be removed.

Plan is to inspect all the seals and to then re-grease all the bearings. I had previously bought a new set of sprockets and chain, and these will now replace the existing components even though these are in reasonable condition. Like a lot of modern bikes with mono-shock rear suspension, this type of overhaul is normally pretty straightforward.
Title: Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
Post by: Stevie.P on October 02, 2020, 03:38:52 PM
I've just got back from the Triumph dealer (pretty wet out there) and have ordered the 3 tools required do the camshaft timing. I probably have a punch, have loads, that would fit the crank and could have asked one of the lads at my old workplace to make me the locking plate but I just can't be fussed messing. Just my luck I knew the bill would be about 70 but apparently Triumph put all its parts prices up today :172: and it was a few pence short of 80. I could probably have come home and still ordered on Fowlers or W.O.T showing the old prices but then I'd have had to pay a large part of the difference in P & P. Just need to order the torque driver that I decided on from ebay now and I'll be set ..... :164: 2020 or ...2021 or ... 2022 or ...  :008:
Title: Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
Post by: awjdthumper on October 02, 2020, 07:32:33 PM
I am lucky to have a lathe and was able to knock up a suitable (round) locking bar in about 10 minutes. With this you can then obviously do the check and see if the valve timing needs to be adjusted. Slightly ironic that the cost of a new timing chain appears to be similar to the cost of the special tools needed to compensate for a slightly worn chain :084:
Title: Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
Post by: Rtwo on October 05, 2020, 08:00:09 AM
Re the special tools
You can presume that the chain is under tension before you start?
So do the chain timing before doing the shims

No special tools needed

Title: Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
Post by: awjdthumper on October 05, 2020, 08:13:35 AM
I think you still ideally need the locking bar to set the two camshafts in the correct orientation. On mine, the cam sprocket timing marks are very small and I doubt I could accurately position the camshafts with these :084:
Title: Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
Post by: Stevie.P on October 05, 2020, 09:54:00 AM
*Originally Posted by Rtwo [+]
Re the special tools
You can presume that the chain is under tension before you start?
So do the chain timing before doing the shims

No special tools needed



I'd like to see you do that. :084:  Unless you have some magic way to do it with the engine running then the chain won't be under proper (or possibly any) tension without oil pressure, only sat in the rough slack take up position ..... hence why some owners notice the rattle on start up before full oil pressure applies tension and more noticeable when the tensioner is nearing moving to the next notch on the barrel slack adjuster.  :027:

Though I did as a REME apprentice mechanic have to learn to set Bedford RL tappets with the engine running .... you made a mess of a lot of feeler blades before the instructor told you that you'd got it right.  :005: :008:
Title: Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
Post by: Stevie.P on October 05, 2020, 11:16:18 AM
.... though Haynes do indicate you could get away without the tensioner tools by pushing something suitable through the tensioner hole and applying pressure to the chain, but like my previous concern relating to the APE manual tensioner how do you judge applying 0.6nm.  :027:

Given that these modern bikes use such low torques compared to older bikes I'm happy to buy the 0-20mm torque screwdriver I've selected as it can be used on the bulk of the bikes smaller fixings.  :028:
Title: Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
Post by: awjdthumper on October 05, 2020, 12:52:43 PM
After I've reassembled the camshaft assembly, I might see how much difference doing the tensioning by hand makes to the valve timing measurement - I suspect, not a lot. However, the problem is likely to be that you would then need 3 separate hands to do the job possibly making it a two man job!
Title: Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
Post by: Stevie.P on October 05, 2020, 01:02:14 PM
We are probably only talking really about the cam timing retarding a few degrees at maximum and as mentioned this is probably purely to maintain and meet the tight Euro emissions standards ... which for us Brits (at least) is pretty irrelevant as we don't test them on a motorcycle MOT ... YET.

:084: Absolutely no idea but could, for example, a Brit touring in say the Paris new pollution zone system or in somewhere strict like Switzerland be pulled over and have their emissions tested and consequently fail and maybe face a huge fine or something as drastic as bike confiscation? ... if not now but something likely to come as they push for more electric vehicles. :027:
Title: Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
Post by: Rtwo on October 06, 2020, 08:05:59 AM
*Originally Posted by Stevie.P [+]
I'd like to see you do that. :084:  Unless you have some magic way to do it with the engine running then the chain won't be under proper (or possibly any) tension without oil pressure, only sat in the rough slack take up position ..... hence why some owners notice the rattle on start up before full oil pressure applies tension and more noticeable when the tensioner is nearing moving to the next notch on the barrel slack adjuster.  :027:

Though I did as a REME apprentice mechanic have to learn to set Bedford RL tappets with the engine running .... you made a mess of a lot of feeler blades before the instructor told you that you'd got it right.  :005: :008:

The method I mentioned was used and recommended in the TEx manual the Mark Barret produced, his literature on the TEx and the Tiger (and others) is quite highly regarded and I see no reason to doubt it.
To my mind the tensioner gets adjusted by oil pressure but it's a one way journey, it doesn't lose tension as pressure drops, unless we're talking about the tiny difference between notches on it?
Title: Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
Post by: awjdthumper on October 06, 2020, 08:56:45 AM
It looks to me as though either approach should work but the use of the special tools would make the job much easier. Also, relying on the hydraulic tensioner would mean that you would need to adjust the valve timing before checking and adjusting the valve clearances (which might need the tensioner to be removed) rather than the other way around with the latter being my preference.
Title: Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
Post by: awjdthumper on October 12, 2020, 06:53:02 AM
Finally got around to putting the top end of the engine back together after overhauling both the back end and front end of the bike in the meantime.

The good news was that all the clearances are now back in spec. The inlet clearances were untouched and already mid-spec but the exhaust clearances are now close to the max at .375 mm.

Unfortunately, I then ran into problems installing the cam chain tensioner. This had to be reset first by pushing in the piston fully and then holding it in place via the snap ring. However, in the MuddySump video he appears to snap the tensioner fully home before tightening up the two screws, whereas, I ended up tightening the screws to pull it fully into place. There was no snap!

I then rotated the engine four times as recommended but on each revolution the tensioner makes a clicking sound. My problem with this is that I don't actually know why the tensioner is doing this and whether this is normal? I know how the tensioner is supposed to work and can sort of see why it might make a clicking sound as the resistance clip jumps from groove to groove as the piston is pushed forward by the spring to tension the cam chain. But I don't understand why it is making a clicking sound every time I rotate the engine after re-installing it!

Has anyone experienced this noise before? Unfortunately, the MuddySump video is speeded up as he rotates the engine 4 times and so I can't tell from it what is normal!
Title: Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
Post by: Rtwo on October 12, 2020, 07:03:33 AM
Yeah, I've had that. I suspect the snap ring gets slightly deformed.
The solution I found was a sharp tap to the rear tensioner blade with a soft drift (I use a nylon one) to shock the tensioner into coming out to play
Title: Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
Post by: awjdthumper on October 12, 2020, 08:16:29 AM
I'll try that but as far as I can tell the tensioner is fully tensioning the chain. I know the snap ring holds the piston in the reset position during installation but I don't know how it actually disengages and whether it then serves another purpose. The Haynes manual recommends rotating the engine backwards by 1/4 turn to free the snap ring -  this must push the piston in slightly taking pressure off the snap ring and allowing it to retract.

My snap ring must have disengaged as soon as I rotated the engine clockwise. What I actually see is that when the engine rotates, at one point the tensioner blade moves slightly to the left - perhaps the cam chain is tighter at that point and the tensioner is simply being pushed in to accommodate this. Therefore, what I may be hearing is the resister spring hitting the end stop? However, I wouldn't have expected it to make much noise in doing this.


The other thing that confuses me is the Haynes manual where it says that you should check the tensioner piston is engaging correctly with the end of the tensioner blade. However, I can't see how it can possibly engage incorrectly given that it is pivoted at one end and has very little lateral play. Also, it is impossible to look down inside the cam chain tunnel to actually see what is going on - the cam chain is in the way!

It's possible that when the engine runs and the tensioner fills with damping oil, the noise will disappear but I am reluctant to try this until I'm sure the tensioner is working properly!
Title: Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
Post by: awjdthumper on October 12, 2020, 10:28:06 AM
Does anyone out there know how the tensioner actually works in practice?

What I don't understand is whether it is the spring pressure or engine oil pressure acting on the piston that creates the timing chain tension. Does oil pressure do this or is the oil there just for damping.

I assume it is oil pressure and the ratchet mechanism is there to stop the tension dropping too much when the engine is switched off. If this is the case then what purpose does the internal spring serve? Is it there just as an aid during tensioner installation?

I may have to take the tensioner off again to check but I assume that, even with the ratchet mechanism working, there is still some backward movement of the piston (5-10 mm) possible before the ratchet mechanism stops it. I'm assuming that this is probably what I am hearing on my engine but I not quite sure why it is happening.

If anyone knows how this device works, I would greatly appreciate an explanation!
Title: Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
Post by: Paulhere on October 12, 2020, 02:20:19 PM
https://www.triumphrat.net/threads/cam-chain-tensioner.964752/
Title: Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
Post by: awjdthumper on October 12, 2020, 03:11:00 PM
Many thanks for the reference. I think I'm now happy with the way the tensioner works - it looks like a simple device but is quite sophisticated in the way it works. When I turned over the engine after installing it, I couldn't understand why it was clicking and certainly didn't want to attempt to start the engine until I was sure what was going on. I can now see why it is clicking and basically everything is perfectly fine :152:
Title: Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
Post by: awjdthumper on October 17, 2020, 08:41:46 AM
Finishing the 12k service this week has somewhat slowed awaiting some new gaskets and other bits required (including Triumph HD4X coolant).

The top end of the motor has now been put back together and, with the IAT and MAP sensors from the air box connected to the harness, the engine started easily and ran sweetly without any unusual noises from the tensioner or valve gear. Before the air box was re-installed, I checked the throttle balance using TuneECU but it only needed a very small adjustment.

The tank is now bolted back in place and today the plan is to replace the coolant and the engine oil. I had previously report the engine check light coming on due to a comms problem with the ABS (fault P1521) but, having since replaced the battery, this problem appears to have gone away - fortunately!
Title: Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
Post by: awjdthumper on October 17, 2020, 11:35:53 PM
Changed the engine oil although it took more than the 3.6 L expected.

Changing the coolant proved much more challenging partly because my XCA does not have the bleed screw in the top of the radiator opposite the filler cap making expelling the trapped air more difficult. I was expecting to put back 2.4 L but only managed less than 2 L making me doubt whether all the air has been expelled. The cooling system appears to be functioning correctly but will need to fully convince myself of this tomorrow.

Once I've done that I can turn my attention to trying to remember how to re-assemble the myriad of trim pieces!
Title: Re: The Dreaded 12k Service
Post by: awjdthumper on October 18, 2020, 06:58:33 PM
The 12k service has now been completed. Although most of the service tasks were relatively straightforward, it nevertheless took a lot of man hours to complete. I doubt if I'll reach 24k with this bike but, if I did, even with the benefit of having carried out a major service before, it would still probably me take a couple of days to complete the 24k service. Total cost in parts and consumables was probably the order of 400 although this includes the costs of the new sprockets and rear chain!