Triumph Tiger 800 Forum

Out and About => Tiger Tails - Touring Chat and Ride Reports => Topic started by: Squirrelly on March 14, 2019, 06:03:31 PM

Title: French speeding fine question
Post by: Squirrelly on March 14, 2019, 06:03:31 PM
Can any of our French friends answer this question for me please. ( I'm a UK citizen)

This morning I received by post a French violation notice speeding fine.
A 201D - Mesta camera checked me at 87km/h (speed used 82km/h - 5%) in a 70km/h zone .
It's a 45e fine if paid now, rising to 180e if not paid in time.

My question is; The offence took place on 17/09/2018 but the notice is dated 05/03/2019.
Is there a time limit between a speeding offence taking place and a violation notice being issued?
In this case it's nearly 6 months!

In the UK a notice of prosecution and fine must be issued within 14 days of the speeding offence.

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: French speeding fine question
Post by: Grumps on March 14, 2019, 06:16:36 PM
French limit is 12 months. On a motorhome site I frequent loads of people are getting fines from around Aug/Sep last year.
The French must be rushing through their money-grubbing process to get us all pre-Brexit.

Fine seems to be set at E45.
Title: Re: French speeding fine question
Post by: steve@lincs on March 14, 2019, 06:46:54 PM
Was this in a car or bike, i.e. forward facing camera?
Title: Re: French speeding fine question
Post by: gordybrock on March 14, 2019, 06:47:18 PM
What happens if you just ignored it? Would they demand your extradition? Would you be sent to the guillotine? Exactly what legal jurisdiction do they have over us Brits? Do you seriously think a French trucker would pay a UK fine sent 6 months after the event? Personally, I'd let them whistle for their 45 euros.  :232:
Title: Re: French speeding fine question
Post by: Grumps on March 14, 2019, 06:50:19 PM
I understand that the UK courts would enforce a French fine but it's not the same the other way round.

If you were there at the time and it is likely to be genuine just pay up and avoid France for the forseeable future. I am. They can lose my Euro spend because of their attitude to the UK
Title: Re: French speeding fine question
Post by: Squirrelly on March 14, 2019, 07:17:02 PM
*Originally Posted by Grumps [+]
French limit is 12 months.

Grumps,  where did you find the 12 months figure?    I've looked on AA, RAC, DVLA and Home Office sites and Googled it to death and couldn't find a time limit quoted anywhere.

Title: Re: French speeding fine question
Post by: Grumps on March 14, 2019, 07:19:09 PM
I'll check. Pretty sure it's right
Title: Re: French speeding fine question
Post by: Stevie.P on March 14, 2019, 07:19:41 PM
AIUI it appears the UK will enforce any EU issued motoring offence while making no attempt to make it reciprocal, allowing foreign drivers, particularly lorries, to just flaunt the UK traffic laws with no attempt made to do anything once they leave the country. :211: :027:

As for ignoring the fine, computers never forget (though may crash), so unless you are 100% sure you will never return to France probably best to bite the bullet and pay.  :173:
Title: Re: French speeding fine question
Post by: Grumps on March 14, 2019, 07:38:51 PM
The EU has put a system in place to share driver details across borders, for some safety-related driving offences:

It only applies where the offender isn't penalised while still in the country
It only applies to specific, road safety-related offences:
Speeding
Drink/drug driving
Seatbelt/crash helmet
Red light/forbidden lane, and
Mobile phone offences
The UK joined the system for new offences committed after 6 May 2017
What does this mean?
Basically, if you commit one of the listed offences and the authorities in another country request your details, then DVLA will now have to provide them.

The new regulation (SI 2017/554) requires the DVLA to provide details of the registered keeper/owner at the time of the alleged traffic offence if the authorities in another EU country contact DVLA within 12 months of the date of the alleged offence with:

Details of the alleged offence (date, time, location)
Vehicle registration number
Vehicle category and, if known, its make and model

https://www.theaa.com/european-breakdown-cover/driving-in-europe/driving-offence-abroad
Title: Re: French speeding fine question
Post by: Squirrelly on March 14, 2019, 07:39:49 PM
They have me bang to rights for the offence.  It was me in exactly the place and time stated in the car.

Sadly,  I travel through France at least twice a year and with ANPR cameras everywhere especially at Autoroute tolls and customs posts it wouldn't be difficult to be pulled by le flick to collect their winnings plus non-payment additions.

I'm not unaware of the disparity of fines and rule enforcement between us and them and the irony of an imminent Brexit isn't lost on me either.  My only hope of avoiding paying was the 6 months delay.  If it is 12 months then I'mas well just gritting my teeth and paying up.... :023:
 
Title: Re: French speeding fine question
Post by: Squirrelly on March 14, 2019, 07:42:41 PM
*Originally Posted by Grumps [+]

The new regulation (SI 2017/554) requires the DVLA to provide details of the registered keeper/owner at the time of the alleged traffic offence if the authorities in another EU country contact DVLA within 12 months of the date of the alleged offence with:


https://www.theaa.com/european-breakdown-cover/driving-in-europe/driving-offence-abroad

Thanks Grumps,  I read that very page today but in my outraged anger must have missed the timeline bit.  Grrrr.....
Title: Re: French speeding fine question
Post by: Grumps on March 14, 2019, 07:50:30 PM
It's a one-way street. French drivers here get away with it. Typical soft UK attitudes. I thought the EU was to even everything out....nope.!

I'm now actively avoiding France.
Title: Re: French speeding fine question
Post by: gordybrock on March 14, 2019, 08:00:45 PM
I still wouldn't pay the frogs f**k all
Title: Re: French speeding fine question
Post by: Grumps on March 14, 2019, 08:02:41 PM
*Originally Posted by gordybrock [+]
I still wouldn't pay the frogs f**k all

The sentiment is fine, but the fine itself escalates quickly and 45E is a small price to pay. I too hate the whole system.
Title: Re: French speeding fine question
Post by: V2T on March 14, 2019, 08:23:58 PM
As far as I know the only cooperation the French, and other EU countries get is that the DVLA provides them with details of the registered owner. No enforcement takes place on this side of the border.

UK authorities have exactly the same rights, and if they don’t excercise the right it is no fault of the French.

If it was me I would just pay the fine.

I am annoyed by the proliferation of cameras in France, but I have seen as many in Italy - there is one in every village, and they are rear-facing.

Beware, as, if you exceed the limit by something like 40% the penalties become draconian, they can confiscate your bike. Forty percent sounds like a large margin, but overtake a car safely in a 50km/h zone and it is all too easy to accelerate to 70km/h.
Title: Re: French speeding fine question
Post by: Rtwo on March 14, 2019, 08:41:08 PM
As above, don't believe the anti EU fairy stories, look where that's gotten us.

They can't prosecute you this side of the channel but could just sell the civil debt onto a collection agency here.
I got one in Spain last year, the notice beat me home  :001:
Title: Re: French speeding fine question
Post by: Squirrelly on March 14, 2019, 09:04:19 PM
I'm going to begrudgingly pay the 45e for the following reasons. 

If I don't,  the fine goes up to 68e then 180e.
I go to, or pass through France regularly to get to some of the best riding roads in Europe.
I like French food and I like France despite the French laws and cameras.

As said,  France is now crawling with speed cameras and the villages are marred with speed bumps.
However,  there are valid reasons for this.  I've been driving and riding in France for 40 years and can confirm that the average French driver is a nutter who disregards all speed limits and can't stand to have another vehicle in front of him/her.  They overtake just about anywhere with what I assume to be x-ray vision to see around corners and over hill crests.   

The death rate on French roads is appalling - double the UK rate and among the worst in Europe. https://etsc.eu/euroadsafetydata/

Some years ago they started to errect 'dead men' statues at the side of roads.  Black life-sized, some child-sized, effigies where there had been crashes - one for each fatality.  On some N roads there were dozens of them in as many miles, sobering to us Brits but seemingly ignored by the French. 
Though pi$$ed off to have been 'caught' and fined I can truly understand why the French are taking such a hard line with speeding.  Unlike the UK it's not just revenue collection it's an attempt to lessen the carnage on French roads.


 
Title: Re: French speeding fine question
Post by: bucksfizz on March 14, 2019, 10:53:57 PM
I don't think they can be bothered with foreigners.
I picked up a ticket in Florence for inadvertently using a bus lane, and received a fine in the post back in the UK.
The letter had all sorts of warnings that they can prosecute, etc., but I binned it, and never heard from them again.
Title: Re: French speeding fine question
Post by: gordybrock on March 14, 2019, 11:19:45 PM
*Originally Posted by bucksfizz [+]
I don't think they can be bothered with foreigners.
I picked up a ticket in Florence for inadvertently using a bus lane, and received a fine in the post back in the UK.
The letter had all sorts of warnings that they can prosecute, etc., but I binned it, and never heard from them again.
:493: :0461:  Don't pay them sweet f * ck all
Title: Re: French speeding fine question
Post by: Paulhere on March 15, 2019, 08:07:57 AM
*Originally Posted by Rtwo [+]
As above, don't believe the anti EU fairy stories, look where that's gotten us.

They can't prosecute you this side of the channel but could just sell the civil debt onto a collection agency here.
I got one in Spain last year, the notice beat me home  :001:

 :0461: I got a speeding ticket in the post from Germany last year, I paid it, 10euro's for 69 in a 60. Those debt collectors could put 100e on it. Not worth chancing.
Title: Re: French speeding fine question
Post by: mcinlb on March 15, 2019, 08:43:48 AM
I got the same from a German speed camera, I paid it , not worth any hassle if in France again touring and get pulled...
Title: Re: French speeding fine question
Post by: Squirrelly on March 15, 2019, 09:51:49 AM
*Originally Posted by gordybrock [+]
:493: :0461:  Don't pay them sweet f * ck all

Thank you for your considered opinion  :001:

Since posing the question I've found a letter to 'Ride Magazine' with a question answered by Andrew Dalton from Dalton White Motorcycle Solicitors, their legal advice contributor.  Full question and answer below...

"I have just come back from a ten-day riding break in Spain, which I can highly recommend – Malaga has some fantastic roads. But I have come home to a nasty souvenir, a €50 fine for speeding.

I have clearly been caught in a radar trap. I have heard so much conflicting information from different people that I am unsure what to do with it.

Lots of people have told me that I can simply ignore it, because the Spanish police cannot do anything within the UK jurisdiction. Other people have said pay it just to avoid any hassle – and my wife is convinced that if I ever set foot in mainland Europe again I will be carted off to jail if I don’t pay. Also, once we Brexit, will these fines have any impact at all? I am planning on going back to Andaiucia next year. Will Brexit make it more difficult?

Answer

Pay it! Now that I have told you to pay it, pay it as soon as practicable. You will not be locked up if you go to Spain but your wife has the right idea, albeit dramatically. It has entered biking folklore that you can simply ignore foreign tickets: you can’t; or at least you can’t ignore tickets issued in the European Union, while we remain in the EU.

By an EU-wide agreement a local fine, if unchallenged, becomes payable, if it isn’t paid, the fine is sent on to the local agency – in this case, the DVLA – which will deploy its enforcement officers, who are usually Magistrates’ Courts Officers. The longer that you leave it, the more steps are taken end in the worst case that I have seen, a €100 fine escalated up to just shy of £1000 – so pay your €50. On the positive side, no points go on your licence.

As to what happens after Brexit, I cannot tell you, A ‘crash-out’ will probably mean no fines, as they are enforceable under an EU treaty. While this may sound like you’ll be able to tear across Europe without worrying about fines, many European police forces have the power to seize a foreign vehicle for even minor traffic infringements and without a method of enforcing fines on a UK driver, they are more likely to use that power.

If we have a Brexit with a ‘run-off period, I would hope for at least a couple of years of things staying as they are with mutual recognition of licences and insurance and also, mutual recognition of fines. However, this is by no means certain. I really would not like to speculate how a no-deal Brexit would impact on motorcyclists traveling to the EU, but there is a pretty clear fall-back position; the 1968 Vienna Convention. Riding your own bike in Spain will certainly be possible under this, which was used before the EU and governs non-EU traffic in the EU. However, we might need separate insurance and potentially an international driving permit.

But the shape of any rules will be outside of the UK government’s power if there’s a crash-out Brexit; it will be up to the EU whether it accepts UK licences (it should as it’s currently a Euro licence); but I think insurance will require a Green Card for us in Europe (and for EU drivers coming to the UK). It will be more of a hassle to get to the EU by bike but it won’t be impossible. However, Germany and Portugal are not parties to the 1968 Convention, so I would avoid travel on your own bike there until things are clearer.

If things go horribly pear-shaped, we may be required to buy local insurance on some borders. This is what happens upon entering Morocco (a member of the 1968 Convention) if you do not have pre-existing cover for Morocco but it is not terribly expensive. How good the insurance is, I have never tested. One thing to ponder; my current insurance certificate insures me right across the EU including about four months post-Brexit so I am not sure if the insurers have actually considered the impact of a crash-out, or hard, Brexit.

Andrew Dalton

RiDE Magazine November 2018"
Title: Re: French speeding fine question
Post by: StretchToo on March 15, 2019, 01:56:36 PM
Have to agree with Mr Dalton. The hassle of driving outside the EU is ridiculous. (or doing anything at - I'm currently spending days working out tariff and import regulations for selling our kit into the US, whereas selling in the EU is like selling in Yorkshire - they talk funny but you can go and do it tomorrow if you want)

The fact that they can chase us across borders is/was a minor price to pay for being able to just up and go. We may find ourselves needing 2 or 3 international driving permits and special insurance for some journeys across Europe if things go south next week - that'll cost more than the odd speeding fine.
Title: Re: French speeding fine question
Post by: Grumps on March 16, 2019, 01:14:54 PM
Got my Green Cards today. One for each trip. No idea why they couldn't just issue one for the whole year though?

Green and on Card.
Title: Re: French speeding fine question
Post by: prenticemarie on March 16, 2019, 01:28:55 PM
*Originally Posted by gordybrock [+]
What happens if you just ignored it? Would they demand your extradition? Would you be sent to the guillotine? Exactly what legal jurisdiction do they have over us Brits? Do you seriously think a French trucker would pay a UK fine sent 6 months after the event? Personally, I'd let them whistle for their 45 euros.  :232:
Having spoken to the French Embassy, when I faced a similar situation and asked about not bothering to pay, I was advised that there would be a possibility that on my next visit to France records could show an unpaid fine and my bike could be impounded ! ... My advice is pay up  :031:
Title: Re: French speeding fine question
Post by: bucksfizz on March 16, 2019, 02:35:11 PM
*Originally Posted by prenticemarie [+]
Having spoken to the French Embassy, when I faced a similar situation and asked about not bothering to pay, I was advised that there would be a possibility that on my next visit to France records could show an unpaid fine and my bike could be impounded ! ... My advice is pay up  :031:

How would any immigration official know that it was you riding the bike at the time of the 'offence'?
What proof would he have?
What if you sold the bike on return, and someone else showed up in France on that bike?
Too many unknowns for Johnny Foreigner to do anything.
Title: Re: French speeding fine question
Post by: prenticemarie on March 16, 2019, 02:53:51 PM
*Originally Posted by bucksfizz [+]
How would any immigration official know that it was you riding the bike at the time of the 'offence'?
What proof would he have?
What if you sold the bike on return, and someone else showed up in France on that bike?
Too many unknowns for Johnny Foreigner to do anything.
I know what you are saying, but regardless of who owns or who is riding the Bike at the time, if they have the registration plate details on the next crossing, there could be a lot of arguing/explaining to do ...  :187:
Title: Re: French speeding fine question
Post by: V2T on March 16, 2019, 03:17:26 PM
You would have all the defenses you’d expect to have here. But they would presumably have the right to investigate and ask questions - so, if they have DVLA records that show you were the registered keeper at the time (matching your name in your passport) and they have a record of you having entered France at the time it seems they could reasonably expect you to explain who was riding the bike when the offence was committed. A good solicitor should get you off the hook, at a price. And lots of time wasted.
Title: Re: French speeding fine question
Post by: Grumps on March 16, 2019, 03:34:05 PM
For E45 it's not worth it. Pay up and avoid France in the future. I am. Too many strikes and they are so desperate for cash they are hounding us Brits right now.

German beer is better and that's where I am going this year.
Title: Re: French speeding fine question
Post by: nobsta on March 16, 2019, 05:54:52 PM
https://www.radars-auto.com/

useful site about cameras and fines in France

Search the site via google to get the option of viewing in English
Title: Re: French speeding fine question
Post by: Squirrelly on March 16, 2019, 05:59:33 PM
I've just paid it online by credit card. 
It works out at 38 quid.

It's easy to just say f@ck 'em if the ticket isn't yours but the qualified legal experts say pay it as they WILL chase and get you for an ever-increasing amount if you don't.     Feeling lucky punk....?

The one thing I've found out is not to exceed any speed limit by more than 20kph or the fine is considerably more than 45e.
For instance,  French autoroute limit = 130kph.  Get caught at anything over 155kph (they give you 5kph grace)
and you pay way more than a 'paltry' 45e.
Title: Re: French speeding fine question
Post by: Paulhere on March 16, 2019, 07:36:06 PM
Smart move.

https://www.driving.co.uk/news/british-holidaymakers-warned-as-france-cracks-down-on-speeders/
Title: Re: French speeding fine question
Post by: Squirrelly on March 16, 2019, 09:15:12 PM
*Originally Posted by Paulhere [+]
Smart move.

https://www.driving.co.uk/news/british-holidaymakers-warned-as-france-cracks-down-on-speeders/

It was 6 AM one morning in July 2011 when I was 8 years younger and a good 2 stones lighter.
I was cycling a push bike up Mont Ventoux from Bedouin and I was still in the forest nearing Chalet Reynard when I heard the sound in the distance.  It sounded like a bunch of TT racers wringing the necks of their bikes.  The noise got closer and louder until a mixture of exhaustion, fear and self preservation had me leaping off the bike on to the rocky verge.

The screaming first car was a Ferrari followed by Porsche, Lotus, Audi R8,  Lamborghini and repeat...
There must have been at least 20 of them driving like utter and absolute tw@ts.  Not one of them had a front number plate but looking at their plates from the rear they were all Brits.  A bunch of rich petrol heads out tear-arsing up a mountain at 6 'o clock in the morning sans front number plates...  They knew the Gendarmes were still rubbing le sleep from their eyes at that hour of the day and that French cameras were front facing

France used to be a playground for us bikers too but not so much anymore, they have non-union speed cameras that flash you from behind, work for minimum wage 24/7 and unlike us fair minded Brits they hide them behind trees, signposts and bridge parapets with no warnings.   
Don't be surprised when the par avion letter arrives on your door mat.
Title: Re: French speeding fine question
Post by: Paulhere on March 16, 2019, 09:38:17 PM
Me & missus rode up Mont Ventoux from  Beduoin on our ST955, us & around a 100 cyclists saluting Tommy's shrine, old boys in overstretched lycra having a great time at the top holding their bikes in the air under the Mont Ventoux sign.

Worst bit was erecting the tent in that wind.
Title: Re: French speeding fine question
Post by: steve@lincs on March 16, 2019, 11:09:26 PM
I tried to pay mine today (car did it!) But wouldnt accept credit card and said go to bank.....at least iys not points .
Title: Re: French speeding fine question
Post by: Paulhere on March 17, 2019, 09:52:57 AM
*Originally Posted by steve@lincs [+]
I tried to pay mine today (car did it!) But wouldnt accept credit card and said go to bank.....at least iys not points .

I paid online by Bank transfer, no probs, they gave the account, sort code & ref number to use.
Title: Re: French speeding fine question
Post by: Squirrelly on March 17, 2019, 10:23:21 AM
*Originally Posted by steve@lincs [+]
I tried to pay mine today (car did it!) But wouldnt accept credit card and said go to bank.....at least iys not points .

My credit card was accepted ok?

As long as you enter the offence number (remote payment number) and key from the bottom of the orange payment notice sheet and your credit card (Mastercard or Visa) is valid it should work on the link below.

https://www.amendes.gouv.fr/tai
Title: Re: French speeding fine question
Post by: steve@lincs on March 17, 2019, 11:21:11 AM
 Thanks squirrelly and paulhere, I filled in the online bit and entered all the credit card details,  so when I was waiting for a ' sucessfully completed' message it just said error.   Ill wait to see if its on the card before paying again!
Interestingly, I was doing 98 in a 90 limit. They say the used speed is 93 (98 - 5kph)  but the explanation on the back said its calculated by speed -5 kph, -5% so by rights that should bring it below the 90 limit.   But Im just going to pay, rather than contest.......though it was my wifes car I was driving....?!
Title: Re: French speeding fine question
Post by: tauzero on March 22, 2019, 03:41:45 PM
*Originally Posted by steve@lincs [+]
Thanks squirrelly and paulhere, I filled in the online bit and entered all the credit card details,  so when I was waiting for a ' sucessfully completed' message it just said error.   Ill wait to see if its on the card before paying again!
Interestingly, I was doing 98 in a 90 limit. They say the used speed is 93 (98 - 5kph)  but the explanation on the back said its calculated by speed -5 kph, -5% so by rights that should bring it below the 90 limit.   But Im just going to pay, rather than contest.......though it was my wifes car I was driving....?!

Presumably they mean actual speed -5kph, so that is the same as the used speed, the 5kph being your bonus amount (like the 10% plus 2mph used in the UK but less generous). Otherwise they'd be taking 5kph off twice.
Title: Re: French speeding fine question
Post by: Shootfighter65 on March 31, 2019, 08:44:28 PM
Im taking Mt tiger from the states and running a US plate.....whats the chance of the bill ever getting to me? If I get pulled over can I pay the fine by the side of the road?
Title: Re: French speeding fine question
Post by: V2T on March 31, 2019, 09:32:09 PM
Do mean you’ll be riding in France on US plates? I doubt very much they’ll even bother to get hold of you - I think it is very unlikely they have agreements with all the US states to obtain information. Such agreements are usually reciprocal and the French would find it very difficult to share information outside the EU.

Nevertheless, don’t think you can get away. Yes, if they pull you over in a mobile speed trap they take you to the nearest ATM to pay the fine in cash, BUT, beware: there is a tolerance of up to something like 25% over the limit (I think that’s what it is) and at anythiong over that they will take your driver’s licence and potentially impound your bike. So DO NOT be tempted. At that sort of speed the fine will be EUR750, but losing your bike would seriously spoil your trip.